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  1. #81
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    The "Outfront" blog post article that aemeraldrainc linked above is quite interesting. As suggested in the article, I think a figure skating lecture-style touring series (complete with video clips and Dick Button) would be a great way to attempt boosting more interest in skating by the general public. In addition, ISU and feds should collaborate on unique ways to entertain and educate the public about the new judging system, since casual viewers are so confused and turned off due to not understanding the contradictions of IJS, in what has always been a difficult sport/ art to understand.

    Also, I don't think there is a need to "search" for new skating stars, but simply to think outside the box and beyond the status quo re promoting all of the skating athletes/ stars who already exist, but are being ignored (and it shouldn't be all about the ladies, as others have noted in recent threads).

    More skating reality shows with a more serious and instructive bent might be helpful as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heckles View Post
    Even better, have the ass-kicking crime-fighters from old cop shows make guest appearances. Have Walker, Texas Ranger come to town and, while wearing ice skates rather than the usual boots, butterfly-kick the bad guys in the face. Unlike in the old Walker series in which the show invariably concluded with everyone fighting in a burning warehouse, they could have their smackdowns on ice. Oh wait, we have the NHL doing those.
    I've always thought that a direction of big Hollywood action movies should cast Evgeny Plushenko and Mira Leung as a pair of hit people whose side and purpose was ambiguous. They could join Walker, Texas Ranger, but are they on his side?

    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    . Flying anywhere in the US from Seattle is almost always cheaper than flying from Vancouver to some other Canadian city. And SA tickets are darn cheap. SA is great value for a lot of skating fans.
    I'll be awaiting your reports from Lake Placid

    Quote Originally Posted by A.H.Black View Post
    For most people over a certain age, 95% of what they know about figure skating was learned from Dick Button.
    For most people, after the '80's, 95% of what people have to unlearn about figure skating came from Dick Button.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    ...

    For most people, after the '80's, 95% of what people have to unlearn about figure skating came from Dick Button.

    ^^ No, no kwanfan1818, (with all due respect) please don't be part of the "History, what history?" way of thinking. And especially please do not try to cast aspersions on the venerable, astute, and ever-enthusiastic Godfather of figure skating: Dick Button. IMHO, a big part of the transitional problem that figure skating faces is also what our global society faces ... We live in an era during which it's so cool and hip to be of the moment ... "What's new, What's next?" is this generation's mantra. It never fails to amaze how our culture not only "throws away its history," but in many cases young people don't even seem to be aware that something rich, instructive and resonant even exists, and is so easily within their reach.

    Being superficially critical is one thing. Taking the time to see beyond Dick's sometimes uber-enthusiastic slips of the tongue as a broadcaster, to truly understand his great import as a teacher, historian, and invaluable promoter of this sport is another thing entirely. Dick Button, like most human beings, is not perfect but I for one appreciate, respect and honor the exhaustive dedication and enormous contributions he has made to figure skating.

    BTW, it's impossible for anyone to "unlearn" what they never understood in the first place.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ No, no kwanfan1818, (with all due respect) please don't be part of the "History, what history?" way of thinking. And especially please do not try to cast aspersions on the venerable, astute, and ever-enthusiastic Godfather of figure skating: Dick Button. IMHO, a big part of the transitional problem that figure skating faces is also what our global society faces ... We live in an era during which it's so cool and hip to be of the moment ... "What's new, What's next?" is this generation's mantra. It never fails to amaze how our culture not only "throws away its history," but in many cases young people don't even seem to be aware that something rich, instructive and resonant even exists, and is so easily within their reach.

    Being superficially critical is one thing. Taking the time to see beyond Dick's sometimes uber-enthusiastic slips of the tongue as a broadcaster, to truly understand his great import as a teacher, historian, and invaluable promoter of this sport is another thing entirely. Dick Button, like most human beings, is not perfect but I for one appreciate, respect and honor the exhaustive dedication and enormous contributions he has made to figure skating.

    BTW, it's impossible for anyone to "unlearn" what they never understood in the first place.
    *applause* And he also has a sense of humor (see going along with "Push Dick's Button".)

    You know what my non-figure-skating, non-skating-educated parents liked? Mary Carillo's "program" about skating during the Olympics. It was informative, it was fun, and it was accessible to non-skater/non-skate-fan viewers. Regular coverage? I get questions about "Why did that girl [Mirai, in the case I'm thinking of] not place higher? Her program looked cleaner and faster." I had to explain, but that's something the commentary SHOULD have covered. The coverage spends more time on creating rivalries and looking for an ice princess than on clarifying what actually is going on. And the TV personalities chosen are...well, I'm sure they're very nice people in person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Taking the time to see beyond Dick's sometimes uber-enthusiastic slips of the tongue as a broadcaster, to truly understand his great import as a teacher, historian, and invaluable promoter of this sport is another thing entirely. Dick Button, like most human beings, is not perfect but I for one appreciate, respect and honor the exhaustive dedication and enormous contributions he has made to figure skating.
    My problem with Dick was ABC still used him for pbp commentary when he was clearly unable to keep up with what was happening on the ice. That's not a put-down of his past knowledge, nor the fact that he did a lot to promote skating through the years. I thought the role he had on NBC for the Olympics, where he was in the studio and not reacting to things as they were happening was much better for him and he was a good fit. Towards the end of his ABC years, he would get hung up on an ugly spin position that happened one minute before and ignore all the jumps/spins/ftwk a skater would be performing. And then proceed to list them off incorrectly.

    I do think his past knowledge of the sport is very valuable and should be put to good use, but I don't think live commentary is the right answer for that these days.

  6. #86
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    "And that's because as you say, figure skating skews very old. When I hear all the comments about skating needing to be on tv more so people channel surfing would find it easier, I think back to studies which show that type of television watching is mostly represented in the oldest age demographics. Younger watchers just don't watch tv near as much as older folks do, and they don't tend to flip around channels the same way.

    So the very suggestions offered here reflect the older demographic of skating, and why those suggestions are very unlikely to appeal to younger folk who aren't already fans (which sorta reiterates the point that people are projecting their beefs with skating onto the general population and thinking if skating was changed to more appeal to them personally, it would gain larger audiences in general). But that's very skewed thinking just as the fanbase of skating is very skewed demographically as IronLady pointed out (older, white, wealthy women and gay men)."
    I think there is a great deal of truth in these comments. The tricky part is appealing to new demographics without alienating the existing fan base. This can be done but it would require acknowledging that there are some fundamental problems with the events. I love fs but the events can be very boring. Even as a fan I get very bored. There are huge dead times. Other sports have learned to fill the dead spots in play (whether due to TV commercials, judging etc). Also, people attending the events are looking for more than just the event. They want vibrant outside activities, family activities etc. On top of this we have the reality that we see the same programs over and over all year. And while the avid fan may enjoy the development of the program, I suspect the average fan thinks "seen this already". Without getting too into the discussion, the IJS is for sure producing more predictable and justifiable results but it is also resulting in definite "sameness".

    All of these issues have to be addressed to keep fs relevant in today's world.

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    I've watched Button's commentary since he started on Wide World of Sports in the early '60's. I think it declined considerably from his early years, although when I was 8, I'm not sure I would have detected bias if it was there, and I especially wouldn't have known what he was leaving out, since ABC's coverage was limited to medalists and the US competitors, and not always entire programs. YMMV.

    I may be the atypical skating fan, in that I haven't watched team sports regularly for three decades, but love skating and niche sports. I looked forward to ABC's yearly coverage of everything from arm-wrestling to log-rolling to Acapulco cliff diving, and the only sports I won't watch are North American football, boxing, and races with motorized vehicles. The key for me is the commentary, whether it is thoughtful and articulate and whether the sport is explained properly and taken seriously. When Button first started, he and Jim McKay would don formal wear, and they gave skating its due and plenty of respect. In later years, not so much, and listening to Button and Fleming babble back and forth about nothing useful as if they had innings and innings of downtime and airtime to kill is mind-numbing, for me at least.

    I also think the amount of money a person needs to spend to be a skating fan is exaggerated: even among the minority who attend skating events, many people of modest means have a yearly or biennial vacation where they take a plane ride and stay in a hotel for at least half a week in a shared room. That figure skating fans go to an event, not a beach, on a cruise -- many cheap ones can be had at the last minute through discounters -- to the Grand Canyon, to Vegas, or to Disneyland is a choice, but it's not a specifically privileged one. A GP or Canadian Nationals ticket costs less than a 4-day entry ticket to Disneyland. The same is true of Stars on Ice: although tickets are not cheap, many people of modest means go to a football game or the theater or something else at least once a year that's as expensive, especially when you add in the beer.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 02-04-2013 at 11:21 PM.
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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ No, no kwanfan1818, (with all due respect) please don't be part of the "History, what history?" way of thinking. And especially please do not try to cast aspersions on the venerable, astute, and ever-enthusiastic Godfather of figure skating: Dick Button. IMHO, a big part of the transitional problem that figure skating faces is also what our global society faces ... We live in an era during which it's so cool and hip to be of the moment ... "What's new, What's next?" is this generation's mantra. It never fails to amaze how our culture not only "throws away its history," but in many cases young people don't even seem to be aware that something rich, instructive and resonant even exists, and is so easily within their reach.

    Being superficially critical is one thing. Taking the time to see beyond Dick's sometimes uber-enthusiastic slips of the tongue as a broadcaster, to truly understand his great import as a teacher, historian, and invaluable promoter of this sport is another thing entirely. Dick Button, like most human beings, is not perfect but I for one appreciate, respect and honor the exhaustive dedication and enormous contributions he has made to figure skating.

    BTW, it's impossible for anyone to "unlearn" what they never understood in the first place.
    I don't have much to say about Dick except bring him and Peggy back!

  9. #89
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    I just think times have changed. In the 90's and before, it was a big deal to watch the Olympics because...there were no distractions. There were not a lot of television channels. Today, there are 500000 movie channels, the internet, youtube, video games, iphones, ipads etc...

    In the US at least, unless their is a HUGE headlining star like Michael Phelps...no one watches anymore because there are many forms of entertainment that maybe people find more interesting.

    Why aren't Nastia Liukin and Gabby Douglas HUGE stars the way MLR and Dorothy were? Or even the Mag 7?

    They are Olympic Gold Medalists too and very marketable at that.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by aemeraldrainc View Post
    http://outfront.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...igure-skating/

    Sarah Hughes just posted this on her Facebook. Thought it appropriate for this thread.
    Oh, I love Belita Jepson-Turner mentioned in the article. Here is one of her skates.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDvAFbi-ats

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I don't have much to say about Dick except bring him and Peggy back!
    And I say the opposite! It is quite possible to revere Dick Button and understand his place in the history of figure skating without having him do live pbp figure skating commentary at which he no longer excels and is not a good use of his talents.
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    My 13-year-old daughter attended the Canadian championships with me for one of the days. She had attended Skate Canada with me last year too. Both times she said she enjoyed it a lot and she's willing to go to more events with me in the future. However, she has little interest in watching skating on TV or following the sport more closely. When I asked her why, she was brutally honest.

    She said that the sport seems really old-fashioned, especially the costumes. I can't help but agree. I don't understand why all the women wear those little skirts all the time. We both loved Gabrielle Daleman's costume (a full-length bodysuit) for her short program. Why aren't more women wearing costumes like that? Also, she complained that almost all the women used "sappy piano and violin" music for their programs, while the men and pairs had much more variety in their musical choices. She also said the scores are not always obvious (BTW, this is not a comment on the current scoring system, as she'd probably feel the same way about the old 6.0 system), unlike hockey where a puck in the net means a goal.

    Now this is coming from a kid who had taken several years of figure-skating lessons when she was younger, and who actually likes most of the "sappy" music she complained about. (She's a violinist and pianist herself and recognizes many of the popular classical pieces.) If she finds the scoring complicated, the costumes old-fashioned and the music boring, I really wonder what the average Canadian teen thinks of all this!

    My daughter also pointed out that no one her age recognizes any of the skaters. They're not celebrities. I can understand people on this board complaining that some Canadians overhype skaters like Chan and Osmond, but truly, I wish our media would hype the skaters more!

  13. #93
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    Double post

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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    My problem with Dick was ABC still used him for pbp commentary when he was clearly unable to keep up with what was happening on the ice...

    I do think his past knowledge of the sport is very valuable and should be put to good use, but I don't think live commentary is the right answer for that these days.
    Well, ioana, I don't think Dick needs nor maybe even wants to do live blade-by-blade commentary anymore (but I bet he could still do a better job than those who are currently commentating on NBC). And definitely there should still be a place for Dick, and his voice still needs to be heard as part of this sport. As far as Dick "unable to keep up" with what was happening on the ice, I personally think he was so far ahead of what was going on that sometimes his words tripped up on his tongue -- he's so enthusiastic and his brain works so fast. [Of course, Dick also suffered two head injuries as an adult.] Plus the broadcast format in later years was no longer as conducive to what Dick had to offer. As danceronice mentioned, it took Mary Carillo, a skating outsider, to actually figure out an entertaining way to utilize Dick's expertise and to create a unique way of informing the public about the sport during the 2006 Olympics.

    Despite ABC's generally staid, status quo and time-limited approach to the sport over the years, it was obvious that Dick possessed (and still possesses) a vast amount of knowledge. Barely able to contain himself at times, Dick would often make intriguing cultural and historical references. He's probably forgotten already more than any of us will ever know about figure skating. Yes, that was a different time and era when Dick first began covering the sport on television with Jim McKay. But if not Dick, then who? Dick is a wonderful pioneer of the sport as a broadcaster and as a skater (he invented the flying camel spin; landed the first 2-axel and the first ever triple loop in competition; won two Olympic gold medals; is the only non-European to win the European fs championships; and he was the first figure skater to win the Sullivan Award). If Maribel Vinson Owen had not died in 1961, I'm sure she too would have been instrumental in helping to bring the sport into the television age and in teaching the general public about the sport. But in the absence of Owen and others, Dick had the vision and the passion to excite a generation of young people who knew nothing about the sport, into becoming its greatest fans.

    IMHO, it ain't that Dick don't understand IJS, he just knows that it's an inadequate system rushed in too quickly. Here's a famous youtube clip with Dick from 2003:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMoRf-RPssQ

    Forget the fact that the World Skating Federation never got off the ground. It was undermined before it was hastily started by lack of long term strategic thinking and planning, and by a lack of understanding re just how powerful are Cinquanta and the ISU. Dick has since softened his stance, at least publicly, as indeed all the big names who attempted to support the effort found it politically necessary to do. However, just listen to what Dick is saying, and get beyond any dislike you might have for the old 6.0. He's not saying that change within the sport was not needed, but simply that haphazard change and the kind of change that only creates additional problems, is never the solution.

    Quotable Quotes, or apt Buttonisms:

    There’s no vision at this moment in this sport. Where is the sport going? Is this new system that is [coming] in going to make it a jump-popping gymnastics event with nothing else that the theater of skating is all about?

    How can you be in a position where when you do a 3-axel and fall you will get more points than if you didn’t do the 3-axel at all? That does not make sense to me.

    I’m glad that what happened at Salt Lake happened, because it let everybody in the world know exactly what all the rest of us who have been involved in skating have known since the beginning of competitive [figure] skating.

    [With the IJS system] the ISU just put on a clean shirt over dirty laundry.

    Jacques Favre [sp?] was the last figure skater to head the ISU. From 1980 on, it has been [headed by] others [who are not figure skaters].

    In my heart … I hope for a sport by the skaters of the skaters and for the skaters…

    It seems to me that these still very relevant viewpoints from Dick have been relegated to the dustbin of history, even despite the fact that hardcore fans (at least those not mesmerized by numbers mind games and won over by “macho quads”) are still vocal about the same views, even though its

    BTW, Dick’s #5 point quoted above IMO is at the root of the majority of problems in figure skating that we debate ad infinitum here on FSU.


    Truly what we are discussing in this thread is multi-layered and complex with no easy answers or resolutions. There have been lots of good suggestions. And I think the opportunity to see more lecture series of the type sponsored by Ice Theatre of New York would be beneficial.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 02-05-2013 at 06:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agalisgv View Post
    For the Vancouver Olympics coverage in the US, television coverage was definitely skewed older. IIRC, in the men's figure skating competition, Olympic coverage came in third of the top four network broadcasters in the coveted 18-49 demographic.
    http://www.imdb.com/news/ni1604644/apps/mobilesite

    Evan Lysacek's gold medal in men's figure skating at the Olympics carried NBC to another ratings win Thursday, driving "Grey's Anatomy" to one of its smallest audiences ever in the process.

    NBC's 25.3 million viewers and 14.7 rating/23 share in households won the night by a huge margin. CBS (9.55 million, 5.9/9) came in second, while ABC (7.4 million, 4.9/8) was third. Fox came in fourth with 4.6 million viewers and a 2.9/5. The CW (1.6 million, 1.1/2) trailed.

    The story was pretty much the same in the adults 18-49 demographic, where NBC drew a 7.1. ABC and CBS tied for second at 2.5. Fox averaged 1.3 and The CW 0.7.

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    Yeah, if the job of the commentator is to tell a story of what's going on that people can enjoy and learn from, then an 83 year old Dick would be better. Sandra and Scott do not offer genius technical insights or make the sport more understandable; and usually, I believe most people consider them background noise. Dick just needs a partner who can follow the jump business without upstaging him, such as for example Peggy (or some technically sharp people who can whisper into Peggy's ear piece).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    And I say the opposite! It is quite possible to revere Dick Button and understand his place in the history of figure skating without having him do live pbp figure skating commentary at which he no longer excels and is not a good use of his talents.
    Yeah, but I don't think Dick doesn't "excel" at being able to inform viewers about figure skating and what is happening in today's programs, so much as he disagrees with the lack of foundation behind the creation of IJS, and he can see through all the PB wtf, GOE randomness, PCS manipulation, and anonymous scoring crap to the "dirty" underside. Dick is not fooled, and like many old-timers (despite his continuing enthusiasm for the sport), he's probably bored with seeing many of the same programs over and over again, not from the same skater, but the same programmatic spins and moves from different skaters, which often have nothing to do with the music they are skating to. Of course, there are still a lot of bright lights in this sport including skaters, coaches and choreographers who are doing their best to try and honor what the sport is about. But too often the going is tough ... it's like a minefield and a swamp combined.

    Any great programs that we see today such as Alexander Johnson's Tom Dickson choreographed program this season, anything Jeremy Abbott performs, and Dai Takahashi's great programs last season, exist in spite of IJS, not because IJS is so great. Any good judging that we so rarely see is in spite of IJS, not because of IJS. Obviously, the enforced CoP/ IJS is here to stay in all its constant readjustments and modifications. And sure there are some good things involved with IJS, but that's only due to the passion of coaches and of former skaters who were involved in trying to develop it to suit a beneficial purpose for the skaters, and not just to protect the judges and the sport's viability with the IOC (which was the ISU's main motivation).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Yeah, if the job of the commentator is to tell a story of what's going on that people can enjoy and learn from, then an 83 year old Dick would be better. Sandra and Scott do not offer genius technical insights or make the sport more understandable; and usually, I believe most people consider them background noise. Dick just needs a partner who can follow the jump business without upstaging him, such as for example Peggy (or some technically sharp people who can whisper into Peggy's ear piece).
    Seriously. Give him any decent co-commentator and he'd be better than Scott and his groaning along with the jumps and Sandra's inanity. Heck, use Uncle Dick to phase in the younger generation. Almost anyone would be better than what we've got on US TV now.

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    With the Olympics drawing huge numbers for NBC all through the weekend, the big question was whether the Vancouver Games would be able to take out FOX's "American Idol."

    In the end, there was no competition at all, even with mens' figure skating moving to the forefront, it was FOX's "Idol" comfortably beating the Olympics, particularly in the young adults demos.

    Among adults 18-49, FOX averaged a 9.1 demo rating, far ahead of the 5.4 demo rating for NBC. CBS was a distant third in the all-important demo with a 2.6 rating, ahead of the 1.8 rating for CBS and The CW's 0.4 rating.
    http://m.hitfix.com/articles/tv-rati...n-the-olympics

    Dynamic young women performers trying to make it big as the next international star. The women's figure skating competition on the Olympics? Well, yeah, that too.

    But it seems far more were interested in Fox's "American Idol," which out-scored the Olympics, according to Nielsen judges, by 63% in the ad-centric adult 18-49 demographic. The two-hour "Idol" belted out a 9.0/22 rating and share, which was 98% of last week's level, to win ratings gold, while NBC's Vancouver Olympics got the silver with a 5.5/14 ratings replication from a week ago.
    http://m.adage.com/article?articleSe...le_id%3D142285

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    I would like to see the actual score sheet/counter posted in a corner of the tv screen on taped performances. That quad jump was worth x points. That spin was worth y points. That would not be the total final score for the skate, but I think it would explain why technical scores are different between skaters. The downside, of course, is that focusing on the running score would be a huge distraction from watching the actual performance. And it would be impossible to do on a live performance. Maybe use it just for replays?

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