My only "problem" is that sometimes I feel you don't seem to accept that opinions others than yours are valid - which makes very difficult to have a healthy debate (mind you, there are a lot of unhealthy debates at FSU ) Again, I think it's a shame because on the plus side, you do have a lot of knowledge to share with the forum
Last edited by rayhaneh; 02-05-2013 at 04:33 PM.
What happens if I feel that my opinion is not accepted by others? I don't want to restart the debate but I wrote my aspects, why do I think Plushy is the best, and I got some ridiculous and sarcastic rebuttal- for example Gagnam style and Beethowen-, not real explanations, what are the criteria of the best skater. I didn't make an unhealthy debates. If anybody says Plushy isn't artistry and I refute with facts, it is annoying?
Well, titles, medals and championships are definitely something solid and you can account for them. Artistry is something altogether different. I know the judges give an artistic mark, but for individual fans, their favorites are who speaks to them personally from an artistic point of view. Lala, you can't verbally bludgeon individuals into agreeing with you about what constitutes artistry to them as individuals. Actually, I think it's going to be a long time before I ever want to watch another Plushenko video.
You might have gotten a few sarcastic arguments from a very few posters, but many of us tried to offer reasonable debates. You refuse to meet anyone in the middle or give them any respect for having a different opinion. You do your hero no favors. I honestly think he deserves better.
If someone is saying "It's ok to respect Plushenko for his jumps and his medal count, but anyone who really understands figure skating knows he is nothing more than that, because he has no artistry" (and some people totally do imply this, ad nauseum).... then it makes perfect sense to point out that he has many fans around the world (which you can point out by ticket sales, youtube hits, twitter followers, ovations, whatever). And since people are going to say those are just fans who don't know skating, it's reasonable to point out that the judges, spanning two decades and both judging systems, have overwhelmingly given him very high artistic/component scores, even more 6.0s than many skaters who are commonly unquestionably considered "artistic skaters," and you have made good points in the past that he was the youngest ever to get those scores which means it wasn't just based on his reputation.
However, if someone is saying "I am basing my opinion of who is the best skater on my perception of who is the most artistic, and in my opinion that is not Plushenko, because I don't like his choreography and I prefer X," there is really nothing you can say to disprove that. A better approach (which I know you have done also) would be to say "I respect your opinion but I personally find that Plushenko's artistry does it for me, and here is a link to a program I really enjoyed, and here are some examples of his versatility." I think where you are coming off badly to some people is where you seem to be insisting that they are wrong and you are right.
For example a post like this http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3824218 is fine, because you're breaking down the different categories in this thread and explaining why you think Plushy wins at them and you are backing that up with evidence, and honestly, you do have more evidence than people who are just like "Lambiel is so awesome " who aren't getting picked on at all. The problem is coming when people post a different opinion and you continue to argue with them about the same points insisting that your view is correct. The reason those posts don't get picked on is because they are not insisting others agree with them.
This isn't the type of debate where someone is wrong and someone is right. If the thread is titled Who won the most Olympic medals, who landed the most quads, who was the first skater to land a triple axel, who received the most 6.0s, than there is a correct answer. But this thread is titled who is "the best." First there is an argument as to the methodology to use (is it their artistry, their athletic achievements, their record, or a combination of those factors), and then there is an argument of how the skater rates in the categories (if the category is artistry, how is it measured: by the different styles attempted, by the judges' scores, by the audience's reaction, or just by your own personal feelings when you watch the skate).
There are so many different ways to answer that it's impossible to beat someone in this debate. One person could rattle off a list of jumping achievements and another person's answer could totally ignore jumps and both could be equally valid opinions. And I know, your point is that Plushy reigns supreme in all of these categories, and your argument is compelling, but at the end of the day if someone's definition of "best" is let's say, who has the best edges, and they think Lambiel has the best edges, well then Lambiel wins for them, period.
So yes, it is important that you bring in facts, and in fact I appreciate that you do, but this is the sort of debate where the facts can support your argument, but cannot force someone to agree with you, because they can interpret the weight of those facts differently. It is a fact that Plush has a lot of youtube hits, but the poster was pointing out that Gangam Style has more hits than classical music not to be sarcastic, but to point out that having youtube views does not necessarily mean than that piece of music is generally considered to have a higher artistic value. I believe D&W's Indian OD has one of the biggest youtube counts of all time, but I don't regard it as the best choreographed OD ever (I like it, but I like it because it's authentic and fun, not because it was popular on youtube).
I hope that makes sense and that you consider it a friendly attempt to help explain how your posts are coming across so that your time here will be spent more enjoyably. You have a lot to add to this forum and I do sense that you are genuinely not understanding why people are taking issue with your posts, and I think you're a good sport for staying in this thread despite all that.
I don't want to be rude but you can't refute Plushenko wasn't artistic with fact simply because it's a matter of tastes. Don't mistake facts and what you think. I read the whole thread (less Cherub's last post, because I was writing) and seen no facts of Plushenko's superior artistic skills in your posts.
For me he was as artistic as Lysacek... Which isn't really a compliment.
I can only recall one good program from him, Nijinski (Hava Naguila was nice also because of his dazzling speed, but empty, I liked his 2000 LP also but it's not within the timeframe we're looking at). And still it's full of posing doing nothing, stroking and slow skating. But I agree it was a powerfull program. I would love if he skated the original contend but Mishin did as usual, screwed all the choreo up in the air. The show on the german channel showing the work before 2004 Euro was sad because you could see how in pain the choreographer was seeing his work made empty day after day.
Then after 2004 he did the same program again and again with bad music edit (Marton...). The shorts are all set to "arranged" classical pieces, thus losing their impact and beauty - talking about the music and NOT the ersatz he skated - his 2003 SP was the prototype of. And the long are basically all Tangos and his very bad Godfather (frankly, this is just the most ridiculous Godfather program I ever seen). Mishin has something with tangos as Tuktamisheva only skates to this kind of music too now (well, Dark Eyes isn't but pretty close in what you have to express to interpret it).
His so called artistry is just non existent for me. He strokes, moves his arms everywhere as if his life was threatened if not, jumps, strokes, jumps, do so so spins, strokes, and then try to impress the judges via his helicopter impersonation on the last step sequence. Change the music of his program with another one and it doesn't make any differences. No feelings, no emotions anywhere. Just acting as he's owing the world just by being kind enough to compete down there with all the other skaters.
I agree he his a very consistent jumper with a wonderful technique on them and that's why he won so many medals (representing RUS didn't hurt to climb the podiums too). He simply won most of his title just out-jumping his rivals, he still tried at 2010 Vancouver and fell short of one combination so it was certainly the best way for him.
As for his 6.0 at euros & worlds, remove the one from 2004 (judges just went mad at that competition) and I don't think a lot will be left because his first I remember was at 2001 euros. He strongly deserved the one he got for technical merit though, even if it was only about jumps at that time. Remember also that 6.0 was a comparison system. You couldn't give 6.0 to the first skater from the last flight simply because theorically you didn't know what the other would do after. Unless it was a 1000 miles ahead performance (or a dance event !). I know a lot of performances which could have managed 6.0 if skated last.
His flexibility ? Let's be real, his "Biellman" was atrocious to watch, specially at the end he was performing them, and his hand-to-foot (forgot the english name, sorry) spiral wasn't worth peanuts either. His memorabitility is just bacause he had a strange haircut at first and stayed the longest in the sport. Plus his rivalry with Yagudin helped him a lot to be the best known. The longer you stay, the most people hear you name, specially if you often say some "very journalistic" sentences regulary. In other words, if you add drama when speaking (Weir anyone ? He managed a living out of it) and are not PC.
Changing the rules for FS ? The only point I can give you is that he was part of the reason why ISU increased the quad value after Vancouver, but he wasn't the only one complaining, far from it.
Back to the real topic, for me, Lambiel wins hands down. Poeta is the hardest FS ever and truly a wonderful piece of art. He is one of the very few (with Takahashi when not choreographed by Morozov and Abbott) to be able to bring back the old 6.0 artistry under COP as for men skating. To be able to keep the art in skating despite those silly rulebooks. This is the Everest of our sport now and shows IMO how wrong the COP is. If it takes the most talented skater of their generation to achieve it then there's something wrong for me in this system. The same goes for other categories : Savchenko Szolkowy and Shen Zhao 2007 (also to a lesser extend, Berton Hotarek) for pairs, Delobel Schoenfelder & Denkova Staviski for dance (Pechalat Bourzat until 2008 worlds) and Yu-Na & Carolina for ladies. Some others try and are quite successfull now like Suzuki or the german dancers but it's still a bit short in numbers.
I can accept, if anybody says doesn't like Plushy's style,because that is matter of taste. For example I don't like Abbott, he is deadly boring for me, he can't jump. Lambiel? I like him, but he isn't a too good jumper, and often falls in simple steps and jumps in not only competitions, but also on the shows. He is the best? I don't think. He is one of the best skater, his style is beautiful, he gave me some fantastic moments, but I don't want to watch his programs again and again. It's a competitive SPORT!!! Sometimes some FS fans forget this. Lambiel really admires Plushy, they are good friends.
And I show this to Holly and Nours. I don't want convince you, I only want to show how subjective is the "artistry skating":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEJXkfMYTX4 his Nijinsky, another video:
"Superb. He feels and immerses himself utterly and totally in the music. This translates into a soul enhancing joyous and uplifting performance. Technically brilliant, he shines and sparkles like a midwinter star. "
"I never tire of watching him skate, He's magical!! Brings me so much joy,"
"THIS IS HIS ALL-TIME BEST PERFORMANCE AND THE COMBINATION WITH THE MUSIC IS JUST PERFECT.WORDS CAN'T EVEN EXPRESS HOW MUCH I LIKE THIS!"
"God exists <3 He's the proof."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlGVCUwzb7I Moonlight Sonata SP
"This is a lesser known program compared with his other more famous ones, probably because he did not compete much that season due to injuries. But what a haunting and stunningly beautiful program!
A modern interpretation of Beethoven's timeless music, so demure and subtle, and yet with heart-felt passion and sensitivity. It gave us glimpse of longing, bewilderment and vulnerability, combined with the loftiness and sweetness. Only the genius knows how to interpret another genius."
"I agree. I see the spark of the divine one sees in great art -- music, art, ballet. I see the spark of the devine in Evgeni's work."
"Awesome.He is the best skater I have ever seen.And no one can match him.
He is genius.He is No.1."
Maya Plisetskaya about Plushy:
"He is our favourite. He is so good that it looks like nobody can beat him. I can't imagine who can be better. He is a master, a great master who does everything beautifully, brilliantly and artistically. Also, he always looks so confident that we, his fans, cannot be not confident. He skates like an artist who knows that he is the best. Other skaters think that they are good too, but they have doubts and get nervous. Plushenko on the contrary always knows that he is much better than others, and he convinces all of us in it. He not just "works" on ice, he dances on ice masterly, and that is a wonderful thing to see. " and so on...................................
Lala, it's great that you're such a fan of figure skating and especially of Plush. But you do realize that what you just posted (videos of great programs and favorable reviews by lots of people) can be also found with Yagudin, Lambiel and many other skaters, yes?
Varla: "You knew my mother?? What was she like?" Coco: "Very sweet." Evie: "Uh-huh, and a BIG pothead!" -- from "Girls Will Be Girls" (2002)
Can't more or less the same thing be said about Joubert? I mean his looks and the fact he stayed in the sport much longer than others.His memorabitility is just bacause he had a strange haircut at first and stayed the longest in the sport.
Which German dancers, Zhiganshina/Gazsi? If it's them you had in mind, how do they bring the old 6.0 artistry back to the ice, could you give me some examples?Some others try and are quite successfull now like Suzuki or the german dancers but it's still a bit short in numbers.
I think one of the reasons both Joubert and Plushenko have many fans is that they are very, very good performers with a lot of charisma and the ability to project to the audience. And yes, they have both have had very long careers. But I don't think either is memorable to people due to hairstyle or appearance
Mr. Mishin called him an "outstanding artist and spins genius" and referred to his retirement as an "immense loss" (the translation is from Wikipedia, but I've included the original Russian link for you). Poeta, and some of Lambiel's other programs, are works of art. That he wasn't as consistent a jumper as some doesn't make him a bad skater and it does not make him any less of an artist.
Also, Abbott can certainly jump. He cannot do so as consistently as some others, which is hardly the same thing.
Nobody is disputing that Plushenko is very accomplished and has many fans. People are disputing your contention that he is the best at every aspect of skating, that his accomplishments in the 1990s and 2010s are relevant to this thread, that he is a superior artist to everyone in this poll, and that disagreeing with your opinions is due to hate for Plushenko or ignorance of his accomplishments. I don't understand why this has to be explained to you over and over again.
a) I didn't ask for a comparison between Chan and Plushenko - as you mention, Chan isn't on this list. I asked because I was wondering if the fact (Chan has scored more 10s for interpretation, performance/execution etc than Plushenko) meant the conclusion (Chan is better at interpretation/performance execution). If not.....
b) I wondered about the context of Plushenko's 6.0s. Two reasons. The first is that I see 14 judges giving marks at 2004 Worlds. I only see 9 judges giving marks at the 2002 Worlds. Now, I have no idea how many judges scored each competition for each skater, but wouldn't it be fair to assert that Plushenko, by virtue of having more judges, has more opportunity to rack up the 6.0s? Secondly, is it fair to point out that during the 2003/2004 season, judges were handing out 6.0s more readily than in years past due to it being the last season of the 6.0? If so, I'd argue that it casts a little aspersion on your conclusions
c) No need for clarification - his competitive record is an undeniable fact.
d) I never asserted that Plushenko was worse when it came to competitive record and most decorated. I said that I felt they were the same thing. To me, there isn't any reason to separate "most golds" with "most medals" in a discussion like this.
e) He isn't memorable for me. You know what happened? I went and watched all those programs you listed. And it turned out I had forgotten most of them because they just didn't appeal to me. Not all, of course. I quite like his 2001/2002 LP. But in terms of Body of Work, I'd rank him dead last with Lysacek - even Yagudin's brief spell was more productive and interesting.
f) Who cares that he's friends with a guy that owns a really cool musical instrument? What the hell does that have to do with anything?
g) Plushenko is undeniably unique. He's definitely made his mark on the sport. No one denies that.
Quotes from (russian) commentators don't proves anything. If you wanted me to learn you can disagree with me because it's a matter of tastes then you missed my post because that's exactly what I said. His Moonlight Sonata does nothing for me. Had you shown his original 2002 LP, it would have been a better point (I forgot it but that's maybe his best LP IMO and was actually a very good program).
Also, it's easier to complete very good jumps and clean programs when the rest of your program is empty. Mishin doesn't hide he rethink the choreographies in order to be sure the jumps will be landed... It says everything (poor Camerlengo).
As for the german ice dancers, I wanted to say they conceptualize their programs has a whole, skate them with expression and charisma and not only perform elements one after another. There's an idea behind their programs. Not just showing how great skaters they are on programs with no souls (whether it's because they aren't the best skaters or not, it's a different question). They are skating as much for the audiences as for the judges, not a lot of skaters can say this now.
Joubert popularity... I think it's mainly because of his body, nude pictures, 2004-2005 first LP costume, half naked backstages clips, etc (you got it I'd say). Most of the skating fans are women and a lot of them are delighted just by watching him. It's true though he has a great presence on the ice, whatever he does (not so much anymore) and powerfull skating. Plushenko too for that matter (the presence part, not the handsomeness qualities - which I disagree with anyway for Joubert).
Add to the discussion that I admire Maya Plisetskaya very much. (Is she still alive?) I have many of her videos....she was amazing ballerina and great artist. I respect what she has to say. I have no doubt she believes Plushenko is everything she said. As much as I respect her opinion, it just isn't mine as well. I am an independent thinker, lala. Just because someone I admire has a belief, that doesn't mean I adopt it so I can align myself with that person's lofty reputation. I would definitely rather watch Plisetskaya dance than Plushenko skate, that's for sure.
Edited to say I watched the 3 samples lala sent-videos of Pliushenko at his evident artistic best (?) I am sorry lala, he just doesn't do it for me. I feel he is disconnected to the music-it's all skate skate skate look over the should, jump. Now, his jumps are amazing. He's a fabulous athlete but he bores me silly.
I was especially annoyed by the Nijinsky, but probably just for personal reasons. There is no video of Nijinsky, (that I know of) just still photos so we have no idea how the man moved except from written descriptions and these photos. But believe me, Plushenko has nothing in common with Nijinsky! He doesn't have any physical resemblance (which is perhaps not necessary) but aside from a few poses and hand gestures which must have been lifted from Nijinsky photos, there's nothing of Nijinsky there. If someone had titled the skate "Appleblossoms in the Spring" I wouldn't have known any different.
Now, if he had wanted to portray Alexander Goudonov, I think he would have been more artistically successful. Give us a take on Goudonov portraying Spartacus and I think you'd have something of content. Plushenko is much more a bold warrior than introspective dancer.
These are JUST my personal thoughts and do not equate absolute truth in any way. I respect Plushenko immensely and admire his preserverence and determination. I think he has a lot of courage. I do not enjoy watching him as much as I enjoy many other skaters. That's just the way it is.
Oh, and fist pumps in the midst of Moonlight Sonata are not really the best artistic choice of gestures to go with that music....
Last edited by Holley Calmes; 02-06-2013 at 05:27 PM.
I definitely agree with Cherub's very well reasoned post. I am a Plushenko fan and voted for him on this thread but I too think that Lala is overdoing it and actually provoking the opposite effect from what she hopes to. "best" is a vague concept based on numerous subjective characteristics as well as written in stone facts such as medals.
I have always been mystified about the wailing and gnashing of teeth about "arm thrashing" movements attributed incessantly only to Plushenko ("helicopter imitation"). (I am not denying he overdoes it at times), but, being a very strenuous sport based on agility, strength, a good quantity of ballet based movements (ballerinas move their arms constantly if gracefully), quick changes of direction as well as speed, it's inevitable in my opinion that skaters use their arms for balance. I frankly see many many skaters windmilling around the rink, not just Plushenko. But at times it seems everyone is convinced that other skaters have their arms tied down to their sides. Not so!
Another mystery to me is the animosity for Martin, inevitably scorned in every thread by those who don't like Plushenko. The guy is a masterful musician, as proven by the Stradivarius that was lent to him due to his accomplishments; not something that hacks ordinarily get to play. There's no denying that the combination of the two of them was one of the elements that contributed to Plushenko's fame and their exhibiton numbers together were imo memorable.
i voted for yagudin.
by the way, jeffrey buttle even can not be candidate?
I think Jeffrey Buttle is better than joubert and lysacek...
Last edited by karlon; 02-06-2013 at 08:03 PM.
Their exhibition together are just boring and all the same also for me. Don't see the greatness within. I confess I don't like Gala skating anyway and was talking about Plushenko competitives programs.
People seems sometimes to confuse good jump technique and good skating skills, which are different. Tuktamisheva being another great exemple of it. (désolé je te l'ai volée celle là, mais c'est ce que je voulais dire sans trouver les mots)