Let's not forget that in the biggest head to head battle between them, Yagudin beat Plushenko fair and square. I was there. I saw it. Alexei's win at SLC is still an inspiring and much loved moment in skating. Compare that to Plushenko's lackluster gold performance four years later. I am NOT beating up on Plushy. He's magnificent. But I just wanted to point out that we did have a very dramatic moment there on the ice. Alexei had staged a comeback and totally captured the night with a brilliant and heartgrabbing performance. I know Plushenko has had many great moments and performed wonderfully hundreds of times, but nothing is ever going to come close to that moment for me. JMO!!! If we want to say "which one had the most impressive and memorable Olympic performance" I'd have to give it to Yagudin.
I also had the pleasure at that time to admire a beautiful young man named Joubert who didn't medal or even do all that well, but who totally captured my heart. I also got to pay homage to Abt, who to me should have taken the silver, but that's a highly subjective opiniong. (Handsome young man in romantic costume skating to Rachmananov? Are you kidding?? Give him a medal! ) I'm being silly, but in terms of how I took them into my mind and heart, it would've been Yagudin, Abt, Plushenko (who was fabulous-don't get me wrong.)
Like many are saying - it is really a subjective discussion. I try to have respect for the Plushenko ubers. Wish they would return the favor. I agree - they are pushing me away from wanting to hear anything about him. I could never turn against my respect for him as a skater, but it's like "enough already!"
Let's also remember that in terms of fandom, the past ten years has seen a significant boom in popular/social media. It's totally unfair to compare any skater who quit in 2002 with someone going strong in today's world. That comparison is definitely illogical.
I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.
This thread is making me dizzy! I admire you who find the power and inspiration to write long, complex and intelligent replies to Lala. She's clearly obsessed with Plush and won't listen to us, nor understand that different opinions exists, no matter what we write. She's not making any sense in her argumentation, and she will never realize that.
I have been writing in my opinion, and I showed the facts. And I waited for yours. Why we're here? Because we love to talk about the FS. No? Everyone has a different opinions, and when we argue these are conflicting opinions. What is the problem? I don't want to convince anyone, just waiting for someone to refute mine if anyone can.
You know, if anybody ask me who is the best swimmer, I will say Phelps, but who is my favorite, I will say Mark Spitz. Do you understand? The question is who is the best skater in 2000th? When we shall take a decision, we take everything into account: their longevity, results, impact on FS, etc. Or I'm wrong? But what did I get, instead of facts?: false details, many subjective opinions what do you like in FS, and you scolding me because I wrote my aspects. Yes, I'm Plushenko's fan, but these are the reasons, why I'm his fan. What I wrote that are truth, everyone can check it, if wants.
Last edited by lala; 02-03-2013 at 07:05 PM.
It's fine to use your own criteria and declare Plushenko the best. It is not fine to attack people who disagree with your views and claim that they are haters, or ignorant, or both, and then complain when people call you out on it. Acting like an uber will not win you any support here.
And if you can't handle that, there are Plushenko fan forums where you won't have to deal with dissenting views.
I'm sure if anybody will ask this question 20 years time, and read the lexicons, everybody will know the answer.
And I don't want supporters or friends.
Finally thank you for your patient because of my english. I wanted my best.
Lala, a few questions
a) Patrick Chan has received more tens for performance/execution and interpretation from the judges than Plushenko has. Both have competed under COP on the senior stages for the same number of seasons (6). Would it be fair to then assert that Chan is better at performance/execution and interpretation than Plushenko is?
b) If not (as I expect the answer to be from anyone), than is it fair to assert that because the judges gave Plushenko more 6.0 marks than anyone else in history objectively means he's the most artistic skater? If so, why? Why doesn't context matter?
c) Given that the original poster specified the 2000s as well as a specific season frame (2000/2001 to 2009/2010), is my information about Plushenko's competitive record actually wrong? If so, where? If not, is it fair for you to accuse me of not having "exact informations"?
d) What is the difference, for you, between "most decorated" and "competitive record." To me, they are the same thing and to list them twice reaffirms your subjective position as opposed to the objective position you claim to espouse.
e) Is impact solely measured by moves created? Firsts achieved?
f) Is Youtube an accurate measure of true "memorabilty?" Is their a direct correlation between number of views and true memorability? If I can find a Patrick Chan performance that has more views than a Kurt Browning Performance (Worlds 2012 LP vs Nyah, fwiw) does that mean that the Chan performance is more memorable? Is memorable inherently a positive thing?
Since this is FSU I am NOT surprised that several posters have absolutely made my day by posting some marvelous stuff! Thank you, Shine, for that gorgeous, balletic, emotionally uplifting video of Lambiel to Traviata. As someone who works with dancers, he is one of the most balletic, graceful skaters I have ever seen. I think I need to go watch that again a few dozen times-it absolutely lifted my heart! And Zemgirl for the Olympic entrances...I had to find Switzerland and was watching Sweden...was that Bill Clinton marching there behind the Sweden flagbearer? Haha...sorry. It looks like him anyway.
More! Send more Takahashi, more Lambiel, more Joubert videos! I don't care who's the "best." They're all wonderful!
I prefer Yagudin as a skater and I think in the battle of whose better the fact that at the majority of Worlds they competed at and at the Olympics, Yagudin came on top illustrates to me who is really the better skater... Yagudin won that battle.
However, if I'm going to say who is the best of that decade I give it to Plushenko because he competed for most of that decade, Yagudin didn't. And Plushenko's longevity is frankly unreal.
Greatest rivalry though in men's skating.
Okay, back on topic, and as per your request: here's a first by Joubert: first (and for six years, only) skater to land three quads in a program under the IJS. I figure that adjusting for scoring inflation, his 160 and change is more like 175 or so. As for Dai, I only fell for him when he did Bachelorette at the 2008 Worlds gala. Love that program. Kenji Miyamoto makes everything better and for me it's >>>> his Swan Lake; I can't imagine another skater doing as good a job with that music (no, not even Stephane).
Thanks Zemgirl! Those were amazing! What a beautiful beast Joubert was/is! Regardless of his costume. Dai's Swan Lake is my all time favorite of his, but I find him infinitely enjoyable regardless.
This American votes for Plushenko, at least for technical achievements. He's the most successful competitor in the sport's history (my opinion only), and his jumps are still the standard to which everyone else is compared. There may be other skaters I prefer for various reasons: Lambiel, Chan, Takahashi, Yagudin, Kulik, Weir, Joubert, Buttle, Abbott, but IMO, no one jumps better and more consistently than Plushenko, and no one is a more fierce competitor. I respect him for what he has achieved and contributed to the sport.
b.) I didn't say, he is the most artistic skater, I just disproved the claim that he isn't artistric skater and Yag is more artistic skater like Plush.
c.)2000/2001 to 2009/20010 Plushenko has three olympic medals, 3 time W champion, 5 time E champion, yes, 3time GPFwinner and 2times silver medalist( yes, you are right, 1 time he was in 1999), 13 Gp winner, and 8 time Rus Nat champion. (Yagudin has never been Rus Nat champion)
d.) most decorated: I meant: he has the most titles
competitive record: he was only five time silver medalist( in 2001 GPF, 2002 SLC, and 2003 GPF, 2004GPF and 2004 ECH) but in the other competitions he won gold. He wasn't worse!!!!
e.) No, he has changed the FS, he has shaped the FS, he did some elements for the first time in Fs history.
f.)memorability: Do you think, who is interested in FS, doesn't remember him? And the people didn't remember his fantastic performances? His Ex in Torino, his Godfather, St. Petersbourg 300, Bolero, EX programs-Sex bomb, Asissay, Hafanana etc.? And you believe me, if anybody don't interested in FS, knows his name. He received some international awards, he is always a guest for the big shows in Europe and Asia. And he was guest many times in COI. He has own show the Kings on Ice. His friend is E Marton, he has a Stradivari violin, and Plush skated to his music. The people didn't forget this, because this is unique.