View Poll Results: Best male skaters of the 2000s

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  • Lysacek

    19 6.23%
  • Plushenko

    77 25.25%
  • Yagudin

    109 35.74%
  • Lambiel

    44 14.43%
  • Takahashi

    50 16.39%
  • Joubert

    6 1.97%
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  1. #61
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    In terms of achievements in this past decade alone:

    1. Plushenko
    2. Yagudin (career wise it is a tough call between Plushy and Yagudin)
    3. Takahashi- due to all his top 2 medals at the Worlds, Grand Prix final, and all his international wins
    4. Lambiel
    5. Joubert
    6. Lysacek- even with his Olympic and World gold I consider his career the weakest of all these men. He has no other top 2 medals at Worlds or even the Grand Prix final, only 2 grand prix wins. Lambiel has 2 World titles, Olympic silver, 2 Grand Prix final titles, and Joubert has all those European medals and international wins, that makes their whole careers a bit better IMO.


    Best skaters:

    1. Yagudin- his 2002 season performances were better than anything I saw Plushenko do ever.
    2. Plushenko
    3. Takahashi- great but too inconsistent.
    4. Lambiel- ditto above but less athletic as well.
    5. Joubert
    6. Lysacek


    So actually order of most accomplished and best skaters are exactly the same.



    The 15 people who voted for Evan must be on drugs.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    In terms of achievements in this past decade alone:

    1. Plushenko
    2. Yagudin (career wise it is a tough call between Plushy and Yagudin)
    3. Takahashi- due to all his top 2 medals at the Worlds, Grand Prix final, and all his international wins
    4. Lambiel
    5. Joubert
    6. Lysacek- even with his Olympic and World gold I consider his career the weakest of all these men. He has no other top 2 medals at Worlds or even the Grand Prix final, only 2 grand prix wins. Lambiel has 2 World titles, Olympic silver, 2 Grand Prix final titles, and Joubert has all those European medals and international wins, that makes their whole careers a bit better IMO.
    I have no issue with this ranking, but in all fairness, Joubert has more top two finishes at Worlds to his credit. I'm also pretty sure that he had more senior international wins and medals than Takahashi during the decade this thread is focused on (also, Dai's GPF title was this season, so not relevant for 2000-2010). As you noted, Takahashi just hasn't been that consistent a skater throughout his career. He does have an Olympic medal, and was a world record holder, but if we're looking at results only, I'd have both Lambiel and Joubert ahead of Takahashi for the decade of 2000-2010.

  3. #63
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    I didn't read any details, aspects, only subjective opinions. I'm really curious!!!!
    My aspects:
    most decorated -Plushenko: three olympic medal
    competitive rekord-Plushenko
    impact on sport-Plushenko(Plushenko's spiral, first 4-3-2 combo, first 4-3-3 combo, he was the first who did donuts spin and Bielmann spin in man senior comp.)
    technical achievement-Plushenko
    memorability-I think Plushenko-2-3 weeks ago I read in an american article he is the most known figure skater
    skating skills-I think they about the same
    longevity-Plushenko
    artistry - Plushenko, surprisingly for some people I have examined the same period of their First World CH to six years (Because Yagudin had 6 years 1996-2002, thus Plushenko 1998 to 2004.
    Plushenko has 75 6.0 most of them presentation marks. He was the youngest male skater ever (16) who received perfect scores. Yagudin: I didn't count, but clearly less.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    The 15 people who voted for Evan must be on drugs.
    Funny you say that, because I voted for Evan apparently, and totally didn't realize that. I thought I voted for Plushenko. Maybe I was drugged during that episode!

    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    I didn't read any details, aspects, only subjective opinions. I'm really curious!!!!
    My aspects:
    most decorated -Plushenko: three olympic medal
    competitive rekord-Plushenko
    impact on sport-Plushenko(Plushenko's spiral, first 4-3-2 combo, first 4-3-3 combo, he was the first who did donuts spin and Bielmann spin in man senior comp.)
    technical achievement-Plushenko
    memorability-I think Plushenko-2-3 weeks ago I read in an american article he is the most known figure skater
    skating skills-I think they about the same
    longevity-Plushenko
    artistry - Plushenko, surprisingly for some people I have examined the same period of their First World CH to six years (Because Yagudin had 6 years 1996-2002, thus Plushenko 1998 to 2004.
    Plushenko has 75 6.0 most of them presentation marks. He was the youngest male skater ever (16) who received perfect scores. Yagudin: I didn't count, but clearly less.
    Most decorated?
    Plushenko: three Olympic medals, three world titles, four European titles, 11 GP gold medals + three GPF golds. I don't even need to examine the rest

    Competitive record is the same as most decorated.

    Impact on sport: Hmm.... I'd argue that Takahashi, being perhaps the key figurehead of Japanese figure skating since Midori Ito has had quite an impact terms of increasing the popularity of the sport in Japan

    Technical achievement: Plushenko, if only for that 4-3 he landed in the CoR 2009 SP.

    Memorability: In terms of programs, I'd go for Takahashi, though Yagudin and Lambiel are up there as well.

    Longevity: Brian Joubert only missed one season that decade as a senior (00/01; junior internationally), so he gets it for competing in every season of the decade.

    Artistry: Lambiel first, Takahashi second.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    I have no issue with this ranking, but in all fairness, Joubert has more top two finishes at Worlds to his credit. I'm also pretty sure that he had more senior international wins and medals than Takahashi during the decade this thread is focused on (also, Dai's GPF title was this season, so not relevant for 2000-2010). As you noted, Takahashi just hasn't been that consistent a skater throughout his career. He does have an Olympic medal, and was a world record holder, but if we're looking at results only, I'd have both Lambiel and Joubert ahead of Takahashi for the decade of 2000-2010.
    Sorry my bad. I was forgetting the decade ended a few years back and adding Takahashi's results of this decade as well. Takahashi's achievements last decade alone probably have him dead last, behind even Evan (although he is still twice the skater Lysacek is, and IMO a better overall skater than Joubert or Lambiel).

  6. #66
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    Alexei Yagudin is the Best!
    Not only fans, but also young skaters love and respect him very much, so his music is often performed by them

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by NONKO View Post
    Alexei Yagudin is the Best!
    Not only fans, but also young skaters love and respect him very much, so his music is often performed by them
    He's hard to beat. I always found him to have such sincerity with how he emotionally tackled his programs - very genuine and committed. I think that's a big reason he's my fave. And just think of how much courage it took to leave your coach - and the reasons for it - take on a new coach and move away from home (regardless of where) and then still succeed so spectacularly. Heart. That's what he has, and why I adore him. It's different from persistence or determination. They all have great character or they couldn't do what they do. Plushenko has all my admiration. But Alexei is my guy....

  8. #68
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    I voted for Yagudin. The best does not necessarily mean the most highly decorated man that period. Plushenko for sure won the most medals of the skaters listed here (and to him for that as some wonderful skaters are on this poll!). But the best skater is about a skater who has the overall package, i.e. someone who produced memorable performances not mostly in view of jumps. I actually at first thought about voting for Stephane Lambiel. But finally my vote went to Alexej as not only was a great skater, he also managed to skate his best, when it counted most. When he won, he very often skated pristine clean. – Not many skaters can claim that about themselves.

    If this poll would have been about the most successful skater that period – no doubt my vote would have gone to Plushy!

  9. #69

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    If the poll was like 2002 to 2010 I'm sure yagudin would still win! That Olympic performance is so iconic I can see only 2002 mattering in a poll of 8 years and with plushenko's career post 2002 successes.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-FAN View Post
    Lambiel. A skating Legend. Skaters like him don't come every decade.
    Yes. Skaters like this are extremely rare. Best spins by far, beautiful basics, interesting and creative programs always skated to the music. Yes, he was behind other skaters mentioned jump-wise but on everything else he was clearly superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by nubka View Post
    Me neither. Who thinks up crap like that?
    http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...TEAM-ANNOUNCED

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    If the poll was like 2002 to 2010 I'm sure yagudin would still win! That Olympic performance is so iconic I can see only 2002 mattering in a poll of 8 years and with plushenko's career post 2002 successes.
    Well maybe I am misinterpreting the thread, but it isnt meant to be just about what they did and achieved in this decade alone. I doubt Plushenko would ever win a poll over Yagudin considering their whole careers, but Yagudin's greatness was split into two decades, while Plushenko's entire career is essentialy in the 2000s.

  12. #72

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    I voted for Plushenko, but to me, Yagudin is the better skater. Why?

    His jumps are much more beautiful.

    His spins are significantly better.

    His artistry is in a much higher league than Plushy's.

    Still, Plush has the longer career and better record.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    Funny you say that, because I voted for Evan apparently, and totally didn't realize that. I thought I voted for Plushenko. Maybe I was drugged during that episode!



    Most decorated?
    Plushenko: three Olympic medals, three world titles, four European titles, 11 GP gold medals + three GPF golds. I don't even need to examine the rest

    Competitive record is the same as most decorated.

    Impact on sport: Hmm.... I'd argue that Takahashi, being perhaps the key figurehead of Japanese figure skating since Midori Ito has had quite an impact terms of increasing the popularity of the sport in Japan

    Technical achievement: Plushenko, if only for that 4-3 he landed in the CoR 2009 SP.

    Memorability: In terms of programs, I'd go for Takahashi, though Yagudin and Lambiel are up there as well.

    Longevity: Brian Joubert only missed one season that decade as a senior (00/01; junior internationally), so he gets it for competing in every season of the decade.

    Artistry: Lambiel first, Takahashi second.
    It seems you don't know exact informations.

    Oh you are wrong : Three olympic medals, three WCh gold, 7 ECH gold, 4 GPF gold, 10 national titles, GP 18 Gp gold medals etc.

    Longevity: since 1998,he was 15 and won silver at ECH and bronze at WCH, and he was 4th in 2000 but in other competitons he never was worse as silver , quality of his skating is fantastic, who could do this?

    Impact on sport: I repeatlushenko(Plushenko's spiral, first 4-3-2 combo, first 4-3-3 combo, he was the first who did donuts spin and Bielmann spin in man senior comp.) Name one element that bears Yagudin, Takahashi names or what they did for the first time in Fs history...

    Technical achievement: He was the first skater in the world to perform a 4T–3T–2Lo combination in competition, at the 1999 NHK Trophy (he has since landed the combination 26 times so far). He is the first skater to have landed a 4T–3T–3Lo combination in competition, at the Cup of Russia 2002 (he has since landed that combination four times so far). Plushenko is also the first skater to land a 3T–3T–3Lo–2Lo combination, doing so at the 2005 ARD Gala. At the European Championships, he landed a six jump combination (3–3–2–2–2–2) in his exhibition program. He landed a 4T–3T–2Lo–2Lo at the 2001 World Championships. Plushenko has landed a consistent 4T in competition, and landed a 4S in Samara, Russia at the second stage of the 2004 Russian Cup series. It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition.

    Where is Yagudin's or Takahashi's?

    Memorability: That's on thing, you don't like his programs but look at his videos on Youtube! many many veiwers. It's a fantastic video more than 1 million viewers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZtD7IUNr4
    and you believe me, in Europe he is most known and admirable skater like Yuna Kim. Not to mention Japan.
    Artistry: I repeat: Plushenko, surprisingly for some people I have examined the same period of their First World CH to six years (Because Yagudin had 6 years 1996-2002, thus Plushenko 1998 to 2004.
    Plushenko has 75 6.0 most of them presentation marks. He was the youngest male skater ever (16) who received perfect scores. Yagudin: I didn't count, but clearly less.

    I'm waiting for Yagudin's 6.0. )) The other only subjective opinions.

    But I'm not surprised. Many votes for against Plushy, not for Yagudin. It is FSU. Many people haven't exact informations, only repeat what they read on forum from the haters. But don't let me wrong Yagudin is great, but not better than Plushy, and he skated two years in 2000th.
    It's very interesting video :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Plushy beat Yag in 2000 at ECH , Yag's reaction.
    (for ex
    Plushy has more then 90.000 followers on Twitter, Yagudin has more than 5000. ) The real life differs from FSU )
    Last edited by lala; 02-03-2013 at 09:57 AM.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by NONKO View Post
    Alexei Yagudin is the Best!
    Not only fans, but also young skaters love and respect him very much, so his music is often performed by them
    i agree
    He is the god on the ice.
    Last edited by karlon; 02-03-2013 at 09:29 AM.

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    It seems you don't know exact informations.
    Proustable is one of the most knowledgeable skating fans that I have had the pleasure of meeting online.

    Longevity: since 1998,he was 15 and won silver at ECH and bronze at WCH, and he was 4th in 2000 but in other competitons he never was worse silver , quality of his skating is fantastic
    This thread's focus is the decade between the fall of 2000 and the end of the 2009-10 season. I was not aware that this included 1998. Proustable is correct that Joubert competed the most senior seasons during this timeframe. He also won more ISU championship medals than anyone else on the list.

    Impact on sport: I repeatlushenko(Plushenko's spiral, first 4-3-2 combo, first 4-3-3 combo, he was the first who did donuts spin and Bielmann spin in man senior comp.) Name one element that bears Yagudin, Takahashi names or what they did for the first time in Fs history...
    If the standard for impact is having elements and things named after you, then Messrs. Salchow, Lutz and Paulsen probably win, along with Denise Bielmann and Elaine Zayak. I've never heard of spirals, combos or spins named after Plushenko. If it's being the first, Timothy Goebel was the first to land three quads and Brandon Mroz gor the first 4Lz - what of it? You could have made an argument why his impact was greater, but not using this rationale.

    Technical achievement:

    It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition.
    Since Proustable gave this one to Plushenko, I'm not sure why you felt the need to argue.

    Although, FWIW, Joubert has landed more and Yagudin had a better rate of success (see the "King of Quad thread).

    Memorability: That's on thing, you don't like his programs but look at his videos on Youtube! many many veiwers. It's a fantastic video more than 1 million viewers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWZtD7IUNr4
    and you believe me, in Europe he is most known and admirable skater like Yuna Kim. Not to mention Japan.
    The most viewed skating video on Youtube is of a nine year old girl skating to Whip My Hair. The most viewed ice dance video after Bolero is Rubleva losing her dress strap at 2009 Euros. This is really not a good way of judging how memorable a skater is. For me, Plsuhenko is not the most memorable. For you, as a fan, he is - but it does not make either opinion objective.

    Artistry: I repeat: Plushenko, surprisingly for some people I have examined the same period of their First World CH to six years (Because Yagudin had 6 years 1996-2002, thus Plushenko 1998 to 2004.
    Plushenko has 75 6.0 most of them presentation marks. He was the youngest male skater ever (16) who received perfect scores. Yagudin: I didn't count, but clearly less.
    Yagudin got his 6.0s when it counted, not when the judges where giving them out like candy in the final season of the old system. I also don't think you can use this mark to quantify artistry. How many 6.0s did Lambiel receive? And his PBs are nowhere near the PCS that's being given these days.Yet I think there would be agreement among most of us that he is the most artistic skater in this list (some will vote for Takahashi, but I disagree with that assessment).

    But I'm not surprised. Many vote for against Plushy, not for Yagudin. It is FSU. Many people haven't exact informations, only repeat what they read on forum from the haters.
    I voted for Plushenko based on his record of achievement in 2000-2010. I still think your assessment is silly. This is just like the Yuna/Mao/Carolina thread - some fans can't appreciate that their favorite is not perfect. Why? You're allowed to like a skater even if he's not the best at everything. I love Savchenko/Szolkowy, but I'm not going to argue that their SBS spins are great. I think Kostner is awesome, but I don't like all her programs, and I'll concede that she telegraphs jumps. Yet I can appreciate them despite these deficiencies. I would suggest that you learn to appreciate Plushenko without trying to make him into a perfect skater, which he is not.
    Last edited by Zemgirl; 02-03-2013 at 09:20 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zemgirl View Post
    Proustable is one of the most knowledgeable skating fans that I have had the pleasure of meeting online.


    This thread's focus is the decade between the fall of 2000 and the end of the 2009-10 season. I was not aware that this included 1998. Proustable is correct that Joubert competed the most senior seasons during this timeframe. He also won more ISU championship medals than anyone else on the list.


    If the standard for impact is having elements and things named after you, then Messrs. Salchow, Lutz and Paulsen probably win, along with Denise Bielmann and Elaine Zayak. I've never heard of spirals, combos or spins named after Plushenko. If it's being the first, Timothy Goebel was the first to land three quads and Brandon Mroz gor the first 4Lz - what of it? You could have made an argument why his impact was greater, but not using this rationale.


    Since Proustable gave this one to Plushenko, I'm not sure why you felt the need to argue.

    Although, FWIW, Joubert has landed more and Yagudin had a better rate of success (see the "King of Quad thread).


    The most viewed skating video on Youtube is of a nine year old girl skating to Whip My Hair. The most viewed ice dance video after Bolero is Rubleva losing her dress strap at 2009 Euros. This is really not a good way of judging how memorable a skater is. For me, Plsuhenko is not the most memorable. For you, as a fan, he is - but it does not make either opinion objective.


    Yagudin got his 6.0s when it counted, not when the judges where giving them out like candy in the final season of the old system. I also don't think you can use this mark to quantify artistry. How many 6.0s did Lambiel receive? And his PBs are nowhere near the PCS that's being given these days.Yet I think there would be agreement among most of us that he is the most artistic skater in this list (some will vote for Takahashi, but I disagree with that assessment).


    I voted for Plushenko based on his record of achievement in 2000-2010. I still think your assessment is silly. This is just like the Yuna/Mao/Carolina thread - some fans can't appreciate that their favorite is not perfect. Why? You're allowed to like a skater even if he's not the best at everything. I love Savchenko/Szolkowy, but I'm not going to argue that their SBS spins are great. I think Kostner is awesome, but I don't like all her programs, and I'll concede that she telegraphs jumps. Yet I can appreciate them despite these deficiencies. I would suggest that you learn to appreciate Plushenko without trying to make him into a perfect skater, which he is not.
    Well, there are details. I would like to answer you later I have no time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plushenko You can read.

    I don't think he is perfect,but better,than Yagudin, and others on list, in total. Of course Lambiel is artistry and Takahashi is artistry etc., they can jumps etc. But in total -Plushenko. I will come.

    https://www.facebook.com/Plushenko/p...06449129370299 read this. the messages to him to hospital. my favorites:

    "I admire you as a figure skater, I admire you like a sportsman but, first of all, I admire you like a person. Because of that, I wish you an optimal recovery not as figure skating or sports fan, but as a friend. You gave us so much; we will love you anyway, happen that will happen with your sport future. You are UNIC and unrepeatable and you have not to show nothing to anybody. I know that dreams feed you alive but please, think about your health. This is your most important competition now and will you win it. Another success will get behind. I say you again (and every day if is necessary): be patient, always beside you. Love and kisses from Spain."
    and:
    "Hi Zhenya, you have always been an inspiration for me with your strength and with your extraordinary will. You have already everything in you and around you to recover in the best way, but here we are, your fans, to let you know we all appreciate your efforts and cheer for your health first and for your future competitions then. Semper fidelis"

    ))
    Last edited by lala; 02-03-2013 at 10:14 AM.

  17. #77
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    Ok, first the OP makes no sense since it's impossible to compare athletes in a given decade, since some of these will have only part of their career within those years (Yagudin, Takahashi, but also Joubert and Plushenko, to an extent)

    Secondly:

    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post

    But I'm not surprised. Many votes for against Plushy, not for Yagudin. It is FSU. Many people haven't exact informations, only repeat what they read on forum from the haters. But don't let me wrong Yagudin is great, but not better than Plushy, and he skated two years in 2000th.
    It's very interesting video :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Plushy beat Yag in 2000 at ECH , Yag's reaction.
    (for ex
    Plushy has more then 90.000 followers on Twitter, Yagudin has more than 5000. ) The real life differs from FSU )
    lala, I don't think anyone contests the fact that on the medals/ titles level, which is the more straightforward way to acknowledge who is the "best", Plushenko has everyone else beaten. I think you can rest assured on that

    But you also have to accept that people all looking for different things in skating. They will be sensitive about different characteristics, which are not necessarily quantifiable, and they will place these qualities ahead of all the accomplishments you are listings and they are not wrong for doing so - it's their point of view, which, by definition, they are entitled to have, just like you're entitled to voice your opinion. But reposting essentially the same argument after every other post you don't agree with is not only annoying, it's downright offputting. It makes some people like Plushenko less the more you're trying to force-feed your love for him on us (certainly does that to me, and I know I'm not the only one)

    The problem with your argumentation is that you are trying to reduce everything to numbers. Except this makes sense only as far as medals/ titles or number of jumps/ quads/ whatever ar concerned. You can also throw at us the number of his fans, youtube hits, etc. But the great (and also terrible) thing about figure skating, and what sets this sport apart: it's not just about the bigger, stronger, most successful athlete, and thus you can't reduce the performances to just numbers. That's the magic of this sport that there's something about it that goes beyond the quantifiable. This is also why your attempt to reduce artistry to a 6.0 battle (as would be any attempt to reduce artistry to "who had the highest PCs median" under CoP) is actually pointless

    Not looking just at the span of ten years, but looking at each man's career (so far, for some) as a whole, Plushenko is the best in terms of accomplishements, no doubt about it. But to me, Takahashi is much closer to the embodiement of the ideal, of what is best, in skating, in that he has been, and has managed to come back since his ACL injury, at the highest technical level, all the while continuously striving to develop artistically, in all possible directions

    (btw, I think a similar argument could easily be made for Lambiel - for me, it's really touch and go between the two)

    That to me, is a much more important accomplishement than all the number of medals, quads landed, youtube hits, girls' panties thrown at them, or whatever other numbers you want to use to compare them, even if that will never have him in the records or history books, and that will never receive any points per se. And I'm sure you could oppose to me about half a dozen more statistics and four more videos to tell me how wrong and how delusionnal I am for not worshipping at the Plushenko altar - although I dare hope you won't and will respect my, along with everybody else's, opinion, not just condescendedly, but for what they are worth: namely no more and no less than your own
    Last edited by rayhaneh; 02-03-2013 at 11:04 AM.

  18. #78
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    Dear Rayhaneh!! I was waiting for you!!! I didn't read your post, thus can't answer. But I will.

  19. #79
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    to rayhaneh

    As a Plushenko fan actually I agree with quite some of your points since you strictly to point out that it is your own opinion to what you like in skating.

    What I do not like some of the posters here only because they express their opinions like a universal fact. You need to admit not everybody here saying things begins with "IMO", sometimes the contents tend to be annoy and offensive to other fans. But this actually goes for some of lala's posts too. So please, lala, do not try to convince others that Plushenko is the best, as long as he is the best in your heart, and in all other plushy fans' heart, it is enough!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    to rayhaneh

    As a Plushenko fan actually I agree with quite some of your points since you strictly to point out that it is your own opinion to what you like in skating.

    What I do not like some of the posters here only because they express their opinions like a universal fact. You need to admit not everybody here saying things begins with "IMO", sometimes the contents tend to be annoy and offensive to other fans. But this actually goes for some of lala's posts too. So please, lala, do not try to convince others that Plushenko is the best, as long as he is the best in your heart, and in all other plushy fans' heart, it is enough!!
    I think actually, the only reason why we're having any kind of debate is because the op is vague enough. If the op was "who do you think is the most accomplished skater from 2000 to 2010", then there could be really only one winner and that would be Plushenko (the only other skater that would enter that conversation probably being Joubert). I would gladly have voted for Plushenko too - and I would have thought you would have been delusional for actually including Takahashi in the discussion (for the record I haven't voted for anyone as per the beginning of my post above)

    But the op has (deliberately?) left it open. I mean define "best"? Since people will have different ideas of what constitute "best", they will have different opinions on that one. I think a case could be made for almost everyone on that list, to be honest (although I'd find Lysacek the hardest but it would be interesting to read a case well written for him ) which is what makes the discussion interesting and I thought reading through many of the points made was enjoyable (and I've learned a few things, always time well spent )

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