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  1. #401
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    About Coupe de Nice, Flatt and Baga are the logical choice if the objective for the assignment is to "spread the wealth" in terms of assignments, experience and ISU points. But I agree with kwanfan1818 about not sending any - plenty of ladies have already met the minimum scores and neither Flatt nor Baga can seriously challenge them for top ten anyway. They have neither the technical nor political prowess to command high TES / PCS.

    On a more long term based decision, if someone must be sent, I probably would send Cain again since she doesn't have GPs but has skated well and medalled in her assignment. (Hicks would have been the clear choice if her GP didn't conflict)

  2. #402
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    Has Cain given up pairs?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  3. #403
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    I would think Cain has given it up. She's really too tall to find a suitable pairs partner, and now she's starting to have some breakthroughs in senior singles. She's still pretty young so I think there's room for improvement if she sticks with singles---might need some supplemental coaching though. I think her 3Z is still not reliable.

    But as this is a Flatt thread, I think she's as good a choice as any for the Coupe de Nice spot, and I think if the USA has the funds to send somebody to this particular competition, they should. Based on the initial entries list, I think she has a shot at medalling if she skates reasonably clean programs and rotates/stands up on her triples. She certainly has better competition nerves than some of the other entrants that currently have more complete jump/spin arsenals, plus she has lots of senior experience. Those two things count for something.
    Last edited by jiejie; 10-16-2013 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Has Cain given up pairs?
    That's my understanding.

    I don't think USFS should send someone just to send someone but I also think they need to send people to these comps when they can. It just helps the program overall. And to get niggly over any particular skater doesn't. You never know which skater will turn themselves around after a bad season or two and going to comps like this definitely can help in that process.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  5. #405
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    I liked Cain, from San Jose 2012, sitting somewhere in the vicinity of you, MacMadame.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #406
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    TOTALLY agree with you fenway2. Let's reward current performance, not past.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Czisny won a GPF title, 2 Nebelhorns and a handful of GPs. Flatt won nothing internationally since she turned senior.
    Well yeah, Czisny has had 13 years as a senior eligible skater, while Flatt competed 4 1/2 years as a senior. Plus Flatt never went to Nebelhorn, or any B internationals for that matter. Pretty sure she might have pulled off a win at a B even had she ever gone. Except she qualified straight for the GPs when she was eligible. And in her second year as a senior, she qualified for worlds and didn't meet the age requirement so she went to junior worlds and won that instead. And in her first year eligible for worlds, she went and exceeded expectations by finishing 5th, while Czisny had her usual meltdown in the short and cost the US a third spot.

  8. #408

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    No, she just didn't earn back the 3rd spot which had been lost by Kimmie, Ashley and Bebe.
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  9. #409

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    SP start orders are published already for Cup of Nice (link posted in Kiss and Cry forum) - Senior Ladies SP (41 entries!) is on Saturday, Oct. 26, and the 2 U.S. ladies skate back-to-back:
    31 Rachael FLATT USA
    32 Kiri BAGA USA
    They skate 2nd and 3rd in group 6 (7 groups total).
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  10. #410

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    Ah, I'm so nervous, as I posted in the K&C earlier, though I know Rachael isn't. She's like another fave of mine, Sarah Hughes, they never get nervous or scared, et al, which is why they've both had so much success as skaters. jmho.

  11. #411
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    It's not really about whether the skater gets nervous or not (I bet all do to some degree), but how well they handle said nerves (degree of mental toughness).

  12. #412

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    ....Pretty sure she might have pulled off a win at a B even had she ever gone...
    She could have done it at any number of Senior B's in 2008 and 2009, assuming that she had turned in performances comparable to her GP events during those two seasons. In 2008 she scored 155.73 (4th) at Skate America and 166.06 (2nd) at Rostelecom. Even an average score (160.90) would have given her the win over Kostner at Karl Schäfer Memorial (143.66), Sebestyén at Crystal Skate (147.68), or Gedevanishvili at NRW (142.32). In 2009 she scored 174.91 at Skate America (2nd) and 157.71 at Cup of China (4th). Again, with an average score (166.13) she could have won Finlandia over Leonova (162.17), NRW over Marchei (158.93), or Coupe de Nice over Makarova (152.69).
    My job requires me to be a juggler, but that does not mean that I enjoy working with clowns.

  13. #413
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    GP scores are inflated relative to non-ISU international competitions, however.

  14. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    She could have done it at any number of Senior B's in 2008 and 2009, assuming that she had turned in performances comparable to her GP events during those two seasons. In 2008 she scored 155.73 (4th) at Skate America and 166.06 (2nd) at Rostelecom. Even an average score (160.90) would have given her the win over Kostner at Karl Schäfer Memorial (143.66), Sebestyén at Crystal Skate (147.68), or Gedevanishvili at NRW (142.32). In 2009 she scored 174.91 at Skate America (2nd) and 157.71 at Cup of China (4th). Again, with an average score (166.13) she could have won Finlandia over Leonova (162.17), NRW over Marchei (158.93), or Coupe de Nice over Makarova (152.69).
    Exactly. To cite Alisa winning a B international as part of a strong argument for having a better career when Rachael never did a B international just doesn't compute. Alisa has had almost three times as long to carve a better resume and I don't think she's done it. I'll say it again. Rachael has a world junior title, national title, skated two strong programs at the Olympics, finished 5th at her first worlds and beat Yuna freaking Kim in the long program in the same year that Yuna won the Olympics. I'm not even a fan of Rachael's but she more than lived up to her potential and then some.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Exactly. To cite Alisa winning a B international as part of a strong argument for having a better career when Rachael never did a B international just doesn't compute. Alisa has had almost three times as long to carve a better resume and I don't think she's done it. I'll say it again. Rachael has a world junior title, national title, skated two strong programs at the Olympics, finished 5th at her first worlds and beat Yuna freaking Kim in the long program in the same year that Yuna won the Olympics. I'm not even a fan of Rachael's but she more than lived up to her potential and then some.
    I don't think anyone was belittling how much Flatt overachieved given her level of natural talent. The point was who had a better career between Flatt and Czisny.

    And it wasn't so much Czisny winning Nebelhorn, but Flatt's inability to win anything since she turned senior internationally that made me feel like Czisny had a better career. Besides Nebelhorn, Czisny also won a handful of GPs and of course the GPF.

  16. #416
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    But- remember that Flatt has been on one major stage that Czisny hasn't: the Olympics.

  17. #417
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    To be honest Rachael was never going to win many international competitions when she turned Senior. She just didn't have the talent. Her best was never going to beat Yuna, Mao etc etc unless they made some big mistakes.

  18. #418
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    Considering the fact that neither medalled at a senior championship, does it matter which has a slightly better career?

    I think both have achieved some pretty good results, considering how Flatt is more limited on skater skater talent and Czisny with limited jumping talent. That said, I wouldnt know what their international results would have been had they represented and be backed by a less powerful federation. USFS definitely gave each adequate chances to succeed.

    What happened if USFS decided to back, say, Angela Maxwell in 2009 (who had a really good free skate at nationals)? No one knows.

    Sometimes success is partly luck, or doing well when your fed notices you. But the lack of success, like having to recover from injuries like Czisny or Flatt,is partly bad luck and not the fault of the skater
    Last edited by jlai; 10-18-2013 at 04:30 PM.

  19. #419
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    Unfortunately, Flatt never had the opportunity to participate at a Sr B event until this season. I wonder why? I don't think it was for lack of asking to be sent out to those events...as at the time, she was still with her former coach, Zakrajsek, who did have skaters at Sr B events....IIRC, Mroz, Abbott, Aaron, and perhaps even Bradley (did Zawadski go out to a B when she was still with Zakrajsek? .....just not Flatt. Apparently USFS had other directives/objectives than to send an inexperienced young skater ( one season on JGP, won World Jrs at 15)'....out to SR B events....they sent her out to SGP instead. Sr B events give the skaters the opportunity to get in front of international panels beyond the SGP events. If you look at the top group of Sr ladies over the last 5-6 years.....Nagasu, Zhang, Czisny, Gao, Zawadski, Gold, and excluding Wagner here for the moment, IIRC, Flatt is the only one to have not been sent to a Sr B. Hmmmmmm . Why has Wagner also been excluded from Sr b events over the years? ( not including Hicks or some of those that have just come up from Jrs).
    Hmmmmm, again.

    What is the mission statement for Sr B events?
    Last edited by B.Cooper; 10-18-2013 at 05:10 PM.

  20. #420
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    I believe Rachael was assigned to Ice Challenge in Graz last season, but she had to withdraw due to her injury. Other than that, I cannot remember her being assigned to a Senior B.

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