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  1. #381

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Flatt has the 4C's and Olympics minimum TES scores. She also has the Worlds TES minimum scores.

    [...]

    Taking classes part-time or taking classes/working and having proven over time that they are consistently capable of getting competitive results is another story.
    1st point: She doesn't have the Worlds SP TES minimum.

    2nd point: Rachel was consistent competitor throughout high school, and you aren't going to get into Stanford if you're half arsing your high school studies. She's always balanced skating with academics. In 2011-13 when her results dipped, she was suffering from injuries as well as balancing her training with schoolwork. Considering that she's cut back on her workload to concentrate on skating this season, I don't understand why you're still acting like she's not worthy of this assignment.

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    I think what kwanfan1818 was trying to say was that if Flatt does well enough to get assigned to Olympics or 4CC then she can get her world minimums there?

    Anyway, I think this decision regarding Coup de Nice assignments could have gone either way. I only wonder if that extra $$$ to send skaters to senior B came from the fact that USFS had no men to send to the last two jgps, thus freeing up some $$$? Anyway, as long as it's not at the expense of future funding.
    Last edited by jlai; 10-16-2013 at 12:06 AM.

  3. #383
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    No, I was editing the post and left out that she had the Worlds FS TES minimum. However, if she (or Baga) were to be assigned to either, if she couldn't get the SP minimum there, then, per ISU standards, she doesn't qualify to go.

    Flatt was a consistent competitor through high school. High school is not Stanford, though. I had also read that she was taking a full course-load this semester, although, as MacMadame pointed out, not the extra-heavy load she had taken when she was injured and not competing or training and letting accumulated injuries heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    Many skaters in the American ISP are taking college courses (or going to high school) either full-time or part-time. By your logic, USFSA should cut all of their funding and keep them all at home.
    Funding is based on envelopes. Envelopes are based on results. If a skater/team can earn those results while working 80 hours a week or attending Carnegie Mellon, that skater/team gets funding and should.

    International assignments, when they aren't earned and paid for by someone else, ex: GP's, are investments of USFS' money in a skater/team. I'm arguing against that investment in Flatt. I don't know Baga's results or potential; I've just never read anything to suggest that she's in Flatt's position, except for going to Coupe de Nice.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  4. #384
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    Baga has just finished third at her regional, with a score of 119 something.

    ETA: Both her summer comp score and Flatt's summer score were similar though. Is Baga injured?

  5. #385

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Either a strong Junior who wants some Senior international experience and ISU ranking points (there are plenty) or preferably skaters who placed outside top 4 in a tough Sectionals field (like Lauren Dinh or Carly Gold).
    Here are Unseen Skaters' Scoretracker top scores from nonqualifying competitions for all the junior and senior ladies Sylvia was able to obtain scores for this spring/summer:

    seniors

    juniors

    (I note that some of the skaters have changed club affiliation/region or competition level since they earned those scores.)

    Looking down those lists, who would you single out as meeting enough of the following criteria to be clearly more deserving of this assignment than Flatt?

    1) Has actually competed since last season, demonstrating competition readiness with 2013-14 programs (that lets out Dinh, who apparently hasn't competed at all)

    2) Had achieved a top score at a nonqual competition comparable or better than Flatt's at Colorado Championships

    3) Did not already have at least one assignment equal or better in prestige as of the end of September when Flatt was assigned to Cup of Nice

    4) Was not already on track to qualify for the JGP final or at least a second JGP assignment (or do you think that any of the junior international competitors were more worthy of -- and willing to accept -- 3 or 4 fall internationals than Flatt was worthy of 1?)

    5) Is age eligible for senior internationals

  6. #386

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    Franchesca Chiera (101.83 FS, 157.17 total at the SW Florida Fall Classic in Sept. 2013) is the "unseen" Senior lady with the most notable high scores from a club comp. but she is not listed in USFS' International Selection Pool (ISP) because she has yet to qualify for/compete at a U.S. Nationals (Novice or higher). Chiera competed at the Novice level last season, turned 16 earlier this month, and is scheduled to compete at South Atlantic Regionals next week.

    Club comp. high scores for the most recent ISP senior ladies to be assigned to a Sr. B (Cup of Nice):
    Kiri Baga 105.72 (FS) 156.86 Cranberry Open (mid-Aug. 2013)
    Rachael Flatt 87.37 (FS) 143.46 CO Champs (early Aug. 2013)

    Side note: Club. comp. scores are not the only criterion used for making international assignments, obviously.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 10-16-2013 at 01:59 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Flatt has the 4C's and Olympics minimum TES scores.
    But she doesn't have the Worlds SP minimum. Why not let her try to get it? I mean except for the fact that apparently once she kicked your puppy.

    Seriously, much worse skaters than Flatt with much worse records who have done much less for US skating have been sent to internationals with much less fuss.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    No, I was editing the post and left out that she had the Worlds FS TES minimum. However, if she (or Baga) were to be assigned to either, if she couldn't get the SP minimum there, then, per ISU standards, she doesn't qualify to go.

    Flatt was a consistent competitor through high school. High school is not Stanford, though. I had also read that she was taking a full course-load this semester, although, as MacMadame pointed out, not the extra-heavy load she had taken when she was injured and not competing or training and letting accumulated injuries heal.


    Funding is based on envelopes. Envelopes are based on results. If a skater/team can earn those results while working 80 hours a week or attending Carnegie Mellon, that skater/team gets funding and should.

    International assignments, when they aren't earned and paid for by someone else, ex: GP's, are investments of USFS' money in a skater/team. I'm arguing against that investment in Flatt. I don't know Baga's results or potential; I've just never read anything to suggest that she's in Flatt's position, except for going to Coupe de Nice.
    Flatt has also had chronic injury issues since completing high school in 2010. She has ALWAYS said she is a student athlete.....skating has never been her singular focus, and Flatt demonstrated a high level of proficiency during those healthy years. She had many outside commitments beyond high school during those same years, working with
    local and national groups , which involved travel, etc. When healthy, she has been a very consistent competitor for USFS. She has apparently done her "due diligence" and taken 5-6 months off to recover. For goodness sakes, it is a Sr B...not the Olympics. ;-)
    Last edited by B.Cooper; 10-16-2013 at 03:10 AM.

  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But she doesn't have the Worlds SP minimum. Why not let her try to get it? I mean except for the fact that apparently once she kicked your puppy. .
    No puppy to kick. And to repeat for the umpteenth time, were she to do well enough at US Nats to need the World minimums, there are other events like 4C's and spring Senior B's where she could try to earn it. The same is true of Baga, if that's the only reason they're sending her to France.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Cooper View Post
    Flatt has also had chronic injury issues since completing high school in 2010. She has ALWAYS said she is a student athlete.....skating has never been her singular focus, and Flatt demonstrated a high level of proficiency during those healthy years. When healthy, she has been a very consistent competitor for USFS. She has apparently done her "due diligence" and taken 5-6 months off to recover. For goodness sakes, it is a Sr B...not the Olympics. ;-)
    When in high school, it seemed that she went to school and she trained. At Stanford, she goes to school, attends sporting events, belongs to a sorority, is on a dance team, and is heavily involved in student government. And, oh yeah, she trains.

    Big difference.

  11. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    No puppy to kick. And to repeat for the umpteenth time, were she to do well enough at US Nats to need the World minimums, there are other events like 4C's and spring Senior B's where she could try to earn it. The same is true of Baga, if that's the only reason they're sending her to France.
    But it's way easier and less stressful to do it now.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDilemma View Post
    When in high school, it seemed that she went to school and she trained. At Stanford, she goes to school, attends sporting events, belongs to a sorority, is on a dance team, and is heavily involved in student government. And, oh yeah, she trains.
    No, that's not true. Flatt has always been the an Energizer Bunny type of person doing tons of extra crap... appearances, charity work, etc. People would shake their head but she was consistent and got results.

    Then she went to Stanford and her schedule went from Energizer Bunny to insane plus she was injured. People said college is different, Stanford is different, and she'd learn. It seems like she did learn, though I suppose her issues could have *all* stemmed from being injured. But probably not. She is taking a lighter load and and she stopped skating at all those different rinks with all that commute time and all those different coaches. This is good I think.

    If she was still doing that, I'd be more skeptical. But she seems to have figured out that Stanford IS different and college is different and she can't do everything.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  12. #392
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    Where is the article/info reel stating she is taking a lighter load at Stanford this fall? Because that's not what I read earlier...

  13. #393

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    Article was linked in post #303: http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/form...eback-hard-way
    “Honestly, I’m viewing it as just another season. I’ve been hurt many times before and it’s nothing new for me to come back from an injury,” says Flatt, whose schedule at Stanford is lighter, though still full-time. “I just want to have fun again while competing. I think I really lost sight of that when I was competing injured for so long.”
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  14. #394
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    Thanks Sylvia.

  15. #395
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    Many of the posts have questioned USFS strategy in team selection(s).

    Did alittle homework ;-) and compiled Team USA assignments 2012-2008, using four Sr B events as examples. Within any one season and any one event, the strategy for team selection is as varied as there are colors in the rainbow. Unless we were sitting in on the international selection committee phone calls, I don't think each selection is transparent. Some are obvious, others are not.

    I think Flatt's assignment to Nice is pretty straight forward....giving her the opportunity, as others this season, to achieve the minimum TES score necessary.

    Team USA Sr B assignments 2012-2008 (Using Nebelhorn, Finlandia, Coupe de Nice, Nepela Memorial Trophy as examples). USFS has had different strategies over the years in the selection of their Sr B teams going back to 2008.
    Nebelhorn Trophy:
    2012: Stephen Carriere, Keegan Messing, Caroline Zhang, Denney/Coughlin, Donlan/Speroff, Chock/Bates
    2011: Max Aaron, Stephen Carriere, Joelle Forte, Mirai Nagasu, Denney/Coughlin, Marley/Brubaker
    2010: Armin Mahbanoozadeh, Jason Wong, Melissa Bulanhagui, Donlan/Speroff, Zhang/Toth, Shib sibs, Kriengkrairut/Giulietti-Schmitt
    2009 (Oly qualifying event): Ryan Bradley, Alissa Czisny, Castile/Okolski, Davis/White
    2008: Scott Smith, Dennis Phan, Alissa Czisny, Chrissy Hughes, Denney/Barrett, Yankowskas/Coughlin, Samuelson/Bates, Summersett/Gilles

    Finlandia:
    2012: Ricky Dornbush, Johnny Weir, Mirai Nagasu, Hubbell/Donohue
    2011: Douglas Razzano, Chock/Bates, Shib Sibs
    2010: Grant Hochstein, Jonathan Cassar, Amanda Dobbs, Hubble sibs,
    2009: Stephen Carriere, Alex Johnson, Becky Bereswill, Molly Oberstar, Summerset/Gilles
    2008: Shaun Rogers, Karen Zhou, Danielle Kahle

    Coupe de Nice:
    2012: Max Aaron, Keegan Messing, Scimeca/Knierim
    2011: Keegan Messing, Cain/Regan, Marley/Brubaker
    2010: William Brewster, Karen Zhou, Christina-Maria Sperduto, Zeigler/Burbank
    2009: Jason Wong, Michael Solonoski, Chelsea Morrow, Tatyana Khazova
    2008: Jonathan Cassar, Michael Solonoski, Abigail Legg, Amy Nunn, Katz/Lynch,

    Nepela Memorial Trophy
    2012: No Team USA was assigned
    2011: Jonathan Cassar, Grant Hochstein, Castelli/Shnapir, Cannuscio/McManus
    2010-2008: No Team USA assignments

  16. #396
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    She is taking a full load, but it is less than the full load she normally carries.

  17. #397

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Cooper View Post
    Within any one season and any one event, the strategy for team selection is as varied as there are colors in the rainbow. Unless we were sitting in on the international selection committee phone calls, I don't think each selection is transparent. Some are obvious, others are not.
    It should be noted that the International Committee selection committee (ICMS of 9 members) for JGP/Senior B/Skate America/spring international assignments also changes members from year to year and I believe there have been 3 different Chairs from 2008-2013. Senior B assignments usually (but not always) are given to skaters that placed in the top ~12 or 15 at Nationals who are in the ISP and without Grand Prix or JGP assignments. More recently, GP skaters have been given a Senior B if they request one and fulfill their competition readiness requirements in a summer club competition.

    Coupe de Nice:
    2012: Max Aaron, Keegan Messing, Scimeca/Knierim
    2011: Keegan Messing, Cain/Regan, Marley/Brubaker
    2010: William Brewster, Karen Zhou, Christina-Maria Sperduto, Zeigler/Burbank
    2009: Jason Wong, Michael Solonoski, Chelsea Morrow, Tatyana Khazova
    2008: Jonathan Cassar, Michael Solonoski, Abigail Legg, Amy Nunn, Katz/Lynch
    The 2008-2010 Cup of Nice skaters were all Collegiate National medalists (except for Katz/Lynch who were assigned by ICMS) and were not funded as Team USA members (IIRC, they did have the option to buy the official Team USA jacket) - my earlier explanation was here: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post4009731

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by jlai View Post
    Anyway, I think this decision regarding Coup de Nice assignments could have gone either way. I only wonder if that extra $$$ to send skaters to senior B came from the fact that USFS had no men to send to the last two jgps, thus freeing up some $$$? Anyway, as long as it's not at the expense of future funding.
    Yes, for all we know, the ICMS vote could have gone either way. USFS only sent 4 pairs to 2 JGPs apiece (8 slots used) and elected not to send out the other 2 age-eligible pairs in the ISP. 1 JGP dance slot was left unused. Shotaro Omori was the only man assigned in the last 2 JGPs (3 slots were left empty) and he withdrew before he was scheduled to leave. I don't know if any unused money in the JGP budget this year was shifted to the Senior B budget instead; nor do I know if money unused in the ICMS' budget can be saved and used in a different season.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 10-16-2013 at 05:10 AM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  18. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    Phil Hersh, for example, went after Flatt with a pitchfork, almost literally, but came up with all kinds of excuses for Czisny. .
    Hersh's excuses for Czisny are legendary and downright embarrassing. I'm perplexed by the poster who said Czisny has had a better career than Flatt. I'd give the edge to Flatt. They've both finished top 5 at worlds so they are even there. Flatt is a world junior champion. Czisny has one more national title but that first national title is widely regarded as a joke. Plus Flatt had two terrific skates at the Olympics and even beat Yuna Kim in the long program during the Olympic year. Not too shabby. And I happen to think Rachael is downright cute looking. She's not a beauty, but she is cute. Czisny, on the other hand, is all teeth. She's had gift after gift from USFS. She doesn't deserve anymore breaks. Let her try to earn a trip to nationals without the typical propping from USFS.

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    It's true Czisny has had a lot of breaks but she is a National Champion and has won Gold on the SGP. So if she needed a minimum TES score and was healthy enough I'd send her to a late season Senior B too. But only if she needed the minimum score and only if she was healthy enough.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Hersh's excuses for Czisny are legendary and downright embarrassing. I'm perplexed by the poster who said Czisny has had a better career than Flatt. I'd give the edge to Flatt. They've both finished top 5 at worlds so they are even there. Flatt is a world junior champion. Czisny has one more national title but that first national title is widely regarded as a joke. Plus Flatt had two terrific skates at the Olympics and even beat Yuna Kim in the long program during the Olympic year. Not too shabby.
    Czisny won a GPF title, 2 Nebelhorns and a handful of GPs. Flatt won nothing internationally since she turned senior.

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