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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by valyrian View Post
    There's another thing that gets me about the Czisny/Flatt comparisons. Rachael, skating injured at worlds, pops two triples, doesn't fall, lands a 3-jump combination, gets level 3s and 4s, finishes 12th...fined, attitude on this board seems to be "let's tar and feather her." Alissa, skating injured at worlds, falls seven times over the course of two programs, barely makes the FS, lands one rotated triple in her FS, lowest-placing US lady since Nicole Bobek in 1994...not fined, and the attitude here and at other places is "poor dear, poor nervous artiste Alissa" - I believe one of the Icenetwork writers reporting on Nice 2012 called her FS the most courageous skate at the event.

    I like Alissa's skating a lot more than Rachael's but yeesh. Why does one of them get the benefit of the doubt over the other? Is it because Alissa is more classically beautiful than Rachael? Is it because Alissa's name is harder to make into rude rhyming insults? Is it because Alissa's phoenix-from-the-ashes narrative is more fairytale than Rachael's smart-kid-with-an-Olympic-sports-career narrative? I would love a reason.

    Congratulations to both Alissa and Rachael on their regionals wins. I truly hope both of them make it to nationals and skate there to the best of their abilities.
    I suppose the difference is that Alissa didn't know about her injury while Rachael did. At least that's the prevailing argument, anyway.
    .
    I do find the Rachael/Alissa reactions pretty interesting though. There are all sorts of posts about how Alissa can get to Nationals without triples on GS, but yet Rachael will likely get the narrative of failure for only landing two triples at regionals.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    They either have the results or they don't. I don't see adequate but downward results from the year before and her results last year showing a pattern that warrants an investment in her skating, when she hasn't outlined a training plan for why this season would be much different. It's not a matter of taking a spot from anyone else: it's about banking the money and using it for something else in the future.
    I'm not sure if they would save a whole lot of money by not sending Rachael. It's likely she will share a hotel room with Kiri Baga or Jessica Calalang. I won't say it's a drop in the bucket, but I'm not sure if it would be a substantial amount that could be used elsewhere. I also wouldn't be surprise if USFSA had a use it or lose it policy regarding certain line items, and they had money in the international competitions pool to spare. But, I'm not privy to those issues, so my thoughts are speculative at best.

    Kwanfan1818, I remember you mentioning that you are are a USFSA member, have you voiced your concerns regarding this matter? I'd be interested to hear what they would have to say.

    And Rachael is hardly the only skater who has been sent to events despite poor results in the past. Caroline Zhang's various trips to Skate America come to mind. And Baga hasn't been close to Rachael's success as a singles skater and went from 10th in 2012 to 13th at Nationals last year. And Vanessa Lam had a subpar JGP season last year and was also not at nationals and still received a Senior B.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-14-2013 at 10:18 PM.

  2. #342

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    They're two totally different skaters with two totally different strengths. Alissa's strength lies in her spins, spirals, flexibility, posture, and artistry, whereas Rachael's strength is/was her consistency at landing triples (until her injury that is) and her joie de vivre whilst skating. Therefore I honestly see no reason why Alissa should not be able to get to Nationals on her strengths, and the same goes for Rachael. I think it's fair, and I sincerely appreciate both.

    Now it's on to Sectionals (which will be broadcast on IN)!

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I suppose the difference is that Alissa didn't know about her injury while Rachael did. At least that's the prevailing argument, anyway.
    Historically....Alissa's DSC Champions Revue leading up to 2012 Nationals was, how do I put it..... She seemed uncomfortable with the jumps in her program that night and fell several times.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR2Wfuj1XHA

    Although she skated somewhat stronger programs at US Nationals, USFS sent her to The Challenge Cup at the Hague prior to Worlds, where she did not skate well either and struggled with jumping passes:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF_hOWljg9A

    And, unfortunately, we know what happened at Worlds that year.
    I suspect Alissa and her team were concerned about her jumping passes/landings, but the diagnosis was not done until after Worlds, and honestly, I think this was because of what Rachael went thru the year before.

  4. #344
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    Every week and month should make for a solid building opportunity for both Rachael and Alissa. Will be interesting to monitor the progress in even a month at Sectionals

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    Rachael has a realistic shot at finishing in the top 6 at Nationals and making the 4CC team. I really fail see how making sure she has a chance to compete internationally and fulfill the min TS scores requirements shows any preferential treatment from USFSA.
    It will take a lot of skaters bombing for Rachael to get anywhere near the top 10. 139 points would have only gotten her 13th last year and the field will be even more loaded at Nationals come January.

  6. #346
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    I don't understand why we are comparing her to Alissa- Alissa isn't being sent to an international, at least it doesn't appear she is. And her team made it clear she wanted one.

  7. #347

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I don't understand why we are comparing her to Alissa-
    They're both former national champions who didn't compete at Nationals last season and are having to requalify through regionals and sectionals. Seems like a valid reason for comparing their experiences at regionals, and potentially the season as a whole.

    Alissa isn't being sent to an international, at least it doesn't appear she is. And her team made it clear she wanted one.
    So the only point of comparison --or point of contrast -- regarding internationals is that Flatt has one and Czisny doesn't. At this point.

  8. #348
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    Ok fair enough. I did not remember the extent of her injuries. Given how many skaters got international assignments, I guess I can understand why she got one as well (even though I'd personally choose up-and-coming skaters instead).

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    It will take a lot of skaters bombing for Rachael to get anywhere near the top 10. 139 points would have only gotten her 13th last year and the field will be even more loaded at Nationals come January.
    You never know what could happen between now and Nationals (other skaters getting injured, etc) and you don't know what her goals are, so who cares if she's in the top ten or not? It might be a personal challenge just to deliver two decent programs at Nationals.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    I don't understand why we are comparing her to Alissa- Alissa isn't being sent to an international, at least it doesn't appear she is. And her team made it clear she wanted one.
    And it's also been made equally clear by what little skating Alissa has put out on the ice recently, that she isn't ready to compete internationally yet, even at a Senior B. I'm sure USFS will continue to monitor her progress and weigh the options.

    I'm also fascinated by the amount of double-standardism's coming from some of the forum members, declaring that Flatt should hang it up and go away, while practically bestowing a free pass to Czisny on the basis of......I'm not sure. Czisny's better spins? Beauty? Costumes? Sorry guys, but that's just uber favoritism towards a skater you like. And I say this as someone who's never been a particular Rachael fan yet has been eagerly watching Alissa since she was a spunky 8 year old skating juvenile in Ohio. But I have to give Rachael the respect that's due her CURRENT efforts and abilities, and maybe the USFS sees it the same way.

    I'm still waiting for someone to come with that hypothetical lady skater that is being overlooked in favor of Flatt.

  11. #351

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    I seem to recall loooooong threads ripping Alissa for going to worlds and "embarassing the USA" as I think one poster put it.

    Underlying the "anti-Flatt" sentiment, imo, is the very real concern that she will be scored with rose colored glasses.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Underlying the "anti-Flatt" sentiment, imo, is the very real concern that she will be scored with rose colored glasses.
    I don't think this is much of a concern anymore. As far as internal US competitions go, I don't think she's got any particular currency left in the Favor Bank that she can draw upon. If anything, I would think US tech panels and judges would be more likely to cast an overly critical eye to her skating. As for international judges, we'll find out at Coupe de Nice.

  13. #353

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    duplicate
    Last edited by Coco; 10-15-2013 at 02:11 AM. Reason: internet glitch!
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  14. #354
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    Phil Hersh, for example, went after Flatt with a pitchfork, almost literally, but came up with all kinds of excuses for Czisny. Many posters, while somewhat less blatant than he was, did the same thing.

    Underlying the "anti-Flatt" sentiment, imo, is the very real concern that she will be scored with rose colored glasses.
    I don't think that's a concern as far as Flatt is concerned (nor should it be one). Czisny, on the other hand...
    Last edited by RD; 10-15-2013 at 02:38 AM.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    I don't think that's a concern as far as Flatt is concerned (nor should it be one). Czisny, on the other hand...
    Definitely not.

    Rachael's PCS at Regionals were quite low. In the FS, her PCS were in the mid-5's (transitions) to low 6s (Interpretation). She was about 7 points higher in PCS than second place, but that isn't saying much.

    Alissa's PCS at her Regional's FS was six points higher than Rachael's and ranged from the mid 6s (transitions) to 7 even in skating skills. She was 14 points higher than 2nd place and about 20+ on everyone else.

    That said, I haven't seen the programs, so I'll reserve judgment until I see them.

  16. #356
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    delete
    Last edited by Iceman; 10-15-2013 at 04:31 AM.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Fwhen she hasn't outlined a training plan for why this season would be much different..
    Except she has. Last year she was injured and taking a particularly heavy load at school. This year she is not injured and she has deliberately lightened her load at school so she can concentrate on skating more. That seems like a plan for how to do better this year than last to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    It is possible, though, that USFS is sending her to an international competition to see before Nationals if their own judges are in line with how international judges are marking and their tech panels are in line with how international tech panels are calling.
    It seems to me that when Rachael showed up at that summer comp and had interesting programs and did reasonably well in the SP, that it made people sit up and take notice. I think USFS responding by monitoring her (my assumption) and then giving her the Coup de Nice assignment (actually happened). I also think this is a completely reasonable response to what she's put out there on the ice this summer. I think they are hedging their bets on this one and I don't understand what all the fuss about it. It's not the world's greatest assignment, it's not being given to her at another skater's expense and it puts her and them in a good position if she continues to improve her skating over the course of the season while not causing any trouble if she doesn't. It's not like they assigned her to Skate America.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I also wouldn't be surprise if USFSA had a use it or lose it policy regarding certain line items, and they had money in the international competitions pool to spare. But, I'm not privy to those issues, so my thoughts are speculative at best.
    I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    And Rachael is hardly the only skater who has been sent to events despite poor results in the past. Caroline Zhang's various trips to Skate America come to mind. And Baga hasn't been close to Rachael's success as a singles skater and went from 10th in 2012 to 13th at Nationals last year. And Vanessa Lam had a subpar JGP season last year and was also not at nationals and still received a Senior B.
    And, as annoying as it can be when a skater you don't like keeps getting opportunities, I do think it's good that USFS doesn't just dump skaters after one bad season. People have their ups and downs and plenty of skaters who have gone on to produce decent top results have had a season where they didn't do as well as the season before.

    That doesn't mean that there aren't a few I wish they'd have dumped sooner. But I don't think Flatt getting Coup de Nice is anywhere near as egregious as Zhang being assigned to Skate America year after year in spite of being in a slump with disappointing results or Lysacek continuing to get assigned to things when he hasn't skated competitively since the Olympics.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  18. #358
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    P.S. I would like to see the quote where Czisny's team "made it clear" they wanted international assignments for her. I thought it was the opposite: they'd made it clear they knew she wasn't ready.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  19. #359

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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    I see Flatt and Czisny in the same boat. Both were injured last year, both had terrible outings at their last international assignment, both have been top ten in the world, both are returning from injury. I realize it may not be the same posters, but there seems to be a lot more slack given to Czisny, who even in her prime, has never been as consistent a skater as Flatt. Heck, some people seemed to think that Czisny should be able to get to Nationals with only doubles! Seriously?
    To be fair that wasn't "some" people it was specifically one person (who nearly everyone disagreed with) and I think that person thinks that skating is judged by unicorns, using magical rainbow rules, not judges using the IJS.

  20. #360

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Ok fair enough. I did not remember the extent of her injuries. Given how many skaters got international assignments, I guess I can understand why she got one as well (even though I'd personally choose up-and-coming skaters instead).
    Maybe you just have me on ignore, or selectively ignoring....and I know i'm sounding like a stuck record here, but WHO. WOULD. YOU. SEND. INSTEAD?

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