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  1. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    As others have already asked then - who do you think should go in her place? Who is this hypothetical skater that is missing out?
    I think some of you are thinking the complaints are based on fact rather then a predetermined decision. Doesn't really matter what Rachel does for some posters it's an opportunity to "trash" If they don't like a skater doesn't really matter what they actually do, they were "gifted" etc.... No need to try to change their mind

  2. #322
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    Alissa’s career resume is longer than Flatt’s due to her age, 26 yrs old and her birthday….Alissa was born in June, Flatt, age 21, was born in July and had to wait to compete at Jr and Sr levels internationally due to the July 1 cut off date for competition in the ISU events, and missed the opportunity to compete on those levels…always waiting a year or two, inspite of placements, but did not qualify due to age.

    Alissa’s competitive career since 2001-2013 (this encompasses Jr and Sr international careers):
    Jr events (2001-2004)
    JGP events (5 events) 1st: 2 times; 2nd: 2 times; 5th: 1 time
    JGPF: 5th
    World Junior Championships (two events): 6th and 11th
    Sr events (2004-2013)
    Worlds (4 trips) : 2007: 15th, 2009: 11th, 2011: 5th, 2012: 22nd
    No Olympic events
    4CC (3 events): 2007: 5th, 2009: 9th 2011: 5th
    GPF (3 events): 2006: 6th, 2011: 1st; 2012: 5th
    GP events from 2004- 2013 (15 events) : 1st: 3 times; 2nd: twice; 3rd: 3 times; 4th: four times; 6th: one time; 9th: twice;
    Sr B events: 2004-2013 (5 events) : 1st: two times; 2nd: one time; 3rd: one time; 4th: one time
    US National Championships (11 events at Sr level) : 1st: twice; 2nd: once; 3rd: once; 7th: twice; 9th: once 10th: twice; 11th, once (Sr debut at US chamipionships in 2002) 12th once

    Rachael’s competitive career: also encompasses Jr and Sr international career, 2006-2013
    Jr events (2006-2008)
    JGP events (two events) : 1st: once; 2nd: once
    JGPF: 2nd: once
    World Junior Championships: 2008: 1st
    Sr events (2008-2013)
    Worlds (three trips) : 2009: 5th; 2010: 9th; 2011: 12th
    2010 Olympics: 7th
    4CC (two events) : 2009: 7th; 2011: 4th
    GPF: 2010: 6th
    GP events from 2008-2012 (9 events): 2nd: four times; 4th: twice; 9th: twice; 10th: once
    Sr B events: assigned to her first event, Nice, FRA 2013
    US National Championships (6 events at US Nationals at Sr level) : 1st: once; 2nd: three times; 5th: once (first season as US Sr lady at age 14); 6th: once

    My summary: Alissa has had ups and downs through out her entire career, with some seasons or periods of seasons of focus and good results., others not so good. Rachael has, when healthy, been a very strong competitor.
    Last edited by B.Cooper; 10-14-2013 at 05:56 PM.

  3. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    It's one thing to say Flatt has been more consistent, but if you actually look at their competitive records Czisny shines a lot brighter than Flatt IMO.
    Basically, Czisny's highs have been (a little) higher, but also, her lows have been lower. That's all there is to it...

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    So do you think those that work shouldn't be funded by USFS either? They have jobs, so they can't fully commit to skating. (Of course, without those jobs, they couldn't skate...)
    Envelopes are based on results. If Flatt had been able to attend Stanford full time and produce those results, there would be no question that she'd deserve to be in an envelope and get funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    There are many athletes who are in school- don't almost all the ice dancers go to Michigan?
    A few classes at a time, mostly, worked around their training, not the other way around.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Cooper View Post
    My summary: Alissa has had ups and downs through out her entire career, with some seasons or periods of seasons of focus and good results., others not so good. Rachael has, when healthy, been a very strong competitor.
    This makes it sound as though none of Alissa's "downs" had anything to do with injury...Just sayin'

  6. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Envelopes are based on results. If Flatt had been able to attend Stanford full time and produce those results, there would be no question that she'd deserve to be in an envelope and get funding.
    I don't think Flatt should be put in a funded envelope, and it doesn't appear she has- by sending her to an international that possibly places her in reserve envelope, but they don't get any sort of funding except plane tickets. But I agree with the USFS she should be given the opportunity to earn the minimum TES at a Senior B, because she will likely qualify for nationals, and there she may qualify for a championship (including 4CCs). This was something that didn't used to exist- so it wasn't a consideration the USFS had to give: but now they have to prepare any skater who may skate post-nationals to have the minimum scores required to do so. She is clearly still training, and is competing in qualifying competitions- just like skaters who work and do school. She's just doing a bit more school than others.

    I still think full time high school (which I think she did) is more demanding than full time college. College you get to pick when your classes are- she's at a large enough school that there are different sections, and you get to generally pick which classes to take when (ie- save a demanding class for next fall instead of this fall)

  7. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Envelopes are based on results. If Flatt had been able to attend Stanford full time and produce those results, there would be no question that she'd deserve to be in an envelope and get funding.
    Well she did place 6th at Nationals in 2012 and Envelope C funding for 2012-2013...so she has achieve funding status while at Stanford...

    ***

    I guess what people are bothered by is this perception that Flatt is doing this as a side-job as opposed to doing it as the MAIN activity. Even those who have jobs/other activities are doing it to fund their skating, so I'm not sure it's comparable.

    Personally it doesn't bother me that much. I don't really see any skater being negatively affected by Rachel's efforts. She's actually been quite low key about her comeback and has even said point blank while she would love to be on another Olympic team, her goal is just to do well.

  8. #328

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    It's been posted previously that Flatt already attained the TES minimums for the Olympics/4 Continents at last year's Skate America.

    ETA from the 2013-14 team envelope criteria:
    Athletes/teams assigned to an international competition, who are not in the current season's envelope structure, will be placed in the reserve envelope. If the athlete/team medal at a Senior B International, a Junior Grand Prix or a Senior Grand Prix competition, they will be placed, immediately, in Team Envelope C - Tier 2 and receive the remaining funding for that season.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 10-14-2013 at 07:40 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #329
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    Flatt already has the minimum TES for Olympics/4C's and the FS World minimum from last year's SA. Were she to need a Worlds SP minimum, presumably this would be because she'd be high enough at US Nationals to be able to earn it at the Olympics and/or 4C's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Well she did place 6th at Nationals in 2012 and Envelope C funding for 2012-2013...so she has achieve funding status while at Stanford...
    Not in the current time period -- not four months after she started college -- which is what is being discussed. No one is arguing about past envelope funding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I guess what people are bothered by is this perception that Flatt is doing this as a side-job as opposed to doing it as the MAIN activity. Even those who have jobs/other activities are doing it to fund their skating, so I'm not sure it's comparable.
    They either have the results or they don't. I don't see adequate but downward results from the year before and her results last year showing a pattern that warrants an investment in her skating, when she hasn't outlined a training plan for why this season would be much different. It's not a matter of taking a spot from anyone else: it's about banking the money and using it for something else in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    She's actually been quite low key about her comeback and has even said point blank while she would love to be on another Olympic team, her goal is just to do well.
    That's fine, but it doesn't mean that she should be sent to a Senior B at USFS's expense, which is what is being debated.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 10-14-2013 at 07:56 PM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I guess what people are bothered by is this perception that Flatt is doing this as a side-job as opposed to doing it as the MAIN activity.
    Nah, I think they just don't like her very much.

    The same posters said the same things when she focused on skating, too.

  11. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    Nah, I think they just don't like her very much.

    The same posters said the same things when she focused on skating, too.
    Well, I don't know how to respond to that. That's a preference thing.

    I can respond to the claims at hand, as written which is that 1.) Rachael shouldn't get opportunities because they should got to another skater. 2.) Rachael shouldn't get opportunities because she isn't committing to it full-time.

    Which I say 1.) I don't see any proof that a skater is adversely affected because Rachael got Cup of Nice and 2.) Some people choose to juggle different things. Look at Lolo Jones and her attempt to do bobsledding. I say if they can balance the two things in a way that they enjoy it then, great!

  12. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Well, I don't know how to respond to that. That's a preference thing.

    I can respond to the claims at hand, as written which is that 1.) Rachael shouldn't get opportunities because they should got to another skater. 2.) Rachael shouldn't get opportunities because she isn't committing to it full-time.
    I can add a third one - 3) Flatt shouldn't get opportunities because X doesn't want to see her skating any more and wishes she'd go away.

    Harsh, perhaps, but it seems to be the underlying message when you rip apart all the surface layers and get straight to the point...
    _______

    At the end of the day, I guess I don't understand exactly what opportunities she's taking away from the rest of the field. It's not like she's getting a free pass to Nationals or anything, right? She's going through the system like all the other skaters. Whether I personally want to see her there or not has no bearing on this....right?

    And if not Flatt to Cup of Nice....then, pray tell - who?

  13. #333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triple Butz View Post
    It's one thing to say Flatt has been more consistent, but if you actually look at their competitive records Czisny shines a lot brighter than Flatt IMO. Up to this point, she and Wagner have been the only two US women to win gold at a major Sr. international since Kimmie Meissner retired. (No, I'm not counting Hicks or Zawadzki at the US Senior B the last two years, or Nagasu at Finlandia a few years back as having a major impact)

    That being said, I don't see either of them having a shot at an Olympic spot. I do wish them both the best in achieving their personal goals this season.
    I guess it depends on your perspective. Flatt is also an Olympian and has never finished as low at Worlds as Czisny. Czisny may have a GPF gold so her high may be higher, but her lows are also significantly lower.

    ITA about the Olympic spots, and I also hope they both achieve their goals this season..
    A good rant is cathartic. Ranting is what keeps me sane. They always come from a different place. Take the prime minister, for example. Sometimes when I rant about him, I am angry; other times, I am just severely annoyed - it's an important distinction. - Rick Mercer

  14. #334

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    Rachael finished 1st at Central Pacific Regionals today and has advanced to Pacific Coast Sectionals: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...011SEG017.html
    Side note: Besides Flatt, Diggs is a full-time college student at UC-Berkeley (senior?) and Davis (sophomore, I think) at the Univ. of Utah.

    She landed a 3Lz+2T, 3S+2T and one of her 2A - link to CP Sr Ladies FS protocols: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...s/SEGM017.html
    Last edited by Sylvia; 10-14-2013 at 09:00 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  15. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD View Post
    And if not Flatt to Cup of Nice....then, pray tell - who?
    There is no requirement to give anyone who is eligible for an international assignment an assignment. USFS doesn't always assign Cup of Nice. The money doesn't go away if USFS doesn't use it for an international assignment.

    It is possible, though, that USFS is sending her to an international competition to see before Nationals if their own judges are in line with how international judges are marking and their tech panels are in line with how international tech panels are calling.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Rachael finished 1st at Central Pacific Regionals today and has advanced to Pacific Coast Sectionals: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...011SEG017.html
    Side note: Besides Flatt, Diggs is a full-time college student at UC-Berkeley (senior?) and Davis (sophomore, I think) at the Univ. of Utah.

    She landed a 3Lz+2T, 3S+2T and one of her 2A - link to CP Sr Ladies FS protocols: http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...s/SEGM017.html
    Thank you so much for the link results! Where can I find this for the other regional competitions? Icenetwork makes it so difficult to find these stuff!

  17. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurodance2001 View Post
    Thank you so much for the link results! Where can I find this for the other regional competitions?
    My compilation of Regionals links: http://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/regionals/
    (There's a U.S. Regionals thread in Kiss and Cry for those who have access.)
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isnít every four years, itís every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  18. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    My compilation of Regionals links: http://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/regionals/
    (There's a U.S. Regionals thread in Kiss and Cry for those who have access.)
    Thanks!!

  19. #339

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    Yippee, Rach makes it to Sectionals!

    I just now found out in the K&C (my reply copied & pasted from over there):


    Nice news to see when I first log onto FSU today.

    Hmmm, it looks like Rach is shooting for 5 triples in total as her end goal, judging by the doubles. jmho. Can't wait till Sectionals is shown on IN!

  20. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by mag View Post
    I guess it depends on your perspective. Flatt is also an Olympian and has never finished as low at Worlds as Czisny. Czisny may have a GPF gold so her high may be higher, but her lows are also significantly lower.
    There's another thing that gets me about the Czisny/Flatt comparisons. Rachael, skating injured at worlds, pops two triples, doesn't fall, lands a 3-jump combination, gets level 3s and 4s, finishes 12th...fined, attitude on this board seems to be "let's tar and feather her." Alissa, skating injured at worlds, falls seven times over the course of two programs, barely makes the FS, lands one rotated triple in her FS, lowest-placing US lady since Nicole Bobek in 1994...not fined, and the attitude here and at other places is "poor dear, poor nervous artiste Alissa" - I believe one of the Icenetwork writers reporting on Nice 2012 called her FS the most courageous skate at the event.

    I like Alissa's skating a lot more than Rachael's but yeesh. Why does one of them get the benefit of the doubt over the other? Is it because Alissa is more classically beautiful than Rachael? Is it because Alissa's name is harder to make into rude rhyming insults? Is it because Alissa's phoenix-from-the-ashes narrative is more fairytale than Rachael's smart-kid-with-an-Olympic-sports-career narrative? I would love a reason.

    Congratulations to both Alissa and Rachael on their regionals wins. I truly hope both of them make it to nationals and skate there to the best of their abilities.

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