"I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"
Her free skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XD6y-JhR-w
Negative Grades of Execution for Jumps: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html (I'm not sure all of this is exactly as it was at the time, but it's close enough.)
Negative Grades of Execution for Spins: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/spins/compete.htmlErrors for which final GOE must be negative Reduction/Other
Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2
Stepping out of landing in a jump -2
Touch down with both hands in a jump -2
2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2
Starting from wrong edge in F/Lz -2 to -3
Errors for which final GOE is not restricted Reduction/Other
Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2
Under rotated -1 to -3
Poor take-off -1 to -2
Loss of flow/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -1 to -2
Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc) -1 to -2
Long preparation -1 to -2
Touch down with one hand or free foot -1
Unclear edge at take-off in F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -2
Some of the more questionable marks for GOE:Deductions can be based on inconsistent speed, not enough rotations, weak positions, not centered...
Here are some examples of deductions
Fall during the spin –3, –GOE
Touch down with both hands –2, –GOE
Re-centering of the spin –1 to –3
Touch down with free foot or one hand –1
Traveling –1 to –3
Inconsistent speed of rotation (eg slows down) –1
Less than required revolutions –1 to –3
Change of foot poorly executed (eg moving to an intermediate pos. during the change in a sit spin) –1 to –3
Weak or poor position(s)–1 to –3
3F(!)+3T< Unclear edge on flip, mule kick on flip, underrotated triple toe loop. Could have received -3's. Only one judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1.
3Z(!)+2T Looked back before entering the first jump, unclear edge on lutz, mule kick on flipp. Could have received -3's. Only judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1. Two judges gave her a 0.
2A Very slow entrance. Could have received -1's, and that is what most judges did giver her. Two judges, however, gave her 0's.
CCoSp4 Traveled all over the place. Could have received -2 or -3, but all of the judges gave her +1 or +2.
3F(!) Unclear edge, mule kick. Could have received -3's. One judge gave her a -2. The others gave her a -1 or a 0.
And let's take a look at how the judges marked her on PCS. I've marked the Scores of Panel with underlining and put what I believe are the most questionable scores in boldface:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/appA-IJS.pdfSkating Skills 8.00 6.75 5.25 7.50 6.00 7.25 6.75 7.75 5.75 6.82
Transitions 7.75 6.00 4.50 6.75 4.75 7.00 6.25 7.00 5.75 6.21
Performance/Execution 8.25 6.50 6.75 6.75 6.25 7.00 6.75 8.00 5.75 6.86
Choreography 8.25 6.25 5.00 7.00 6.25 7.00 7.00 7.50 6.00 6.71
Interpretation 8.50 7.00 6.50 7.00 6.25 7.25 7.00 7.75 5.75 6.96
The judge who gave Zhang PCS of 8.00 7.75 8.25 8.25 8.50 gave Ashley Wagner, who won the Free Skate, marks of only 7.75 6.75 7.50 7.25 7.25.Program components are marked on a scale of 0.25 to 10.00 in increments of 0.25, with a separate mark given for each program component, of which:
1 = Very poor
2 = Poor
3 = Weak
4 = Fair
5 = Average
6 = Above average
7 = Good
8 = Very good
9 = Superior
10 = Outstanding
Last edited by Vagabond; 02-04-2013 at 01:12 AM.
Sylvia has kindly linked the videos but you can't slo-mo on YT.
Or in other words: 'She's trying a difficult combo, which she can't really fully rotate it because her jump technique is not exactly top drawer but we still want her to get full credit so we'll blame the system.'
I found a clip of Zhang's SP now so will check soon whether that was the case or not and report back.
For variety's sake, I personally would like to see more triple-triple combos attempted that end with loop rather than toe.
"Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden
Ok, I've just downloaded and watched Zhang's Nationals SP video and I think the underrotation was quite apparent. Even without the slo-mo, if you have a trained eye for this kind of thing (as the technical panel members should), you could notice the landings were skiddy and didn't have a lot of flow out, which should ring alarm bells. Also, she didn't get a lot of height or have a lot of speed in so you'd have to have great timing and very sharp rotation in order to make it.
Upon reviewing it frame-by-frame:
First 3loop Take-Off
Not sure if you can see it from this picture but if you watch the video, she's skating on a curve, not parallel to the boards but a little more inwards (towards the camera)
(Btw, this is what I was talking about when I said loops pretty much have to be 1/2 pre-rotated).
First 3loop Landing
Is it the pre-rotation that was an issue? No. Zhang should be landing this jump backwards, turned slightly more inwards towards the camera, in comparison to the boards. You can see in this picture that her blade touches the ice way earlier.
Second 3loop Take-Off
Here she pre-rotates more than 1/2 (again, you have to watch the video yourself to see the whole curve). The take-off edge is on a quite pronounced inward curve this time (towards the camera again), more so than before.
Second 3loop Landing
Blade touches the ice and she still needs to do more than 1/2 rotation (she should be landing backwards on a quite pronounced inward curve towards the camera). If you watch it frame by frame (you can do it on Media Player Classic by pressing Ctrl+Right Arrow) you can see that she rotates over 1/2 on the ice before coming out of the jump.
Based on watching that combination frame-by-frame, to me she has clearly and unquestionably deserved < on the first jump and << on the other. And that's not even taking the pre-rotation into consideration at all. Just the under-rotation alone. So the technical panel did give her allowance for the 1/2 pre-rotation on the loop and she was only required to complete 2 1/2 revolutions in the air (so you can't say ISU is being too harsh on the edge jumps). I see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with those calls.
I think the problem here is not the right risk vs. reward ratio. Loop combos are much much harder than the toe combos but they don't get any extra credit. So it isn't really worth the risk at all.
A number of male skaters did have fully rotated 3/3 loop combos credited a number of times though. Off the top of my head:
Last edited by Ziggy; 02-04-2013 at 12:30 AM.
I blame Sarah Hughes beating Irina in SLC. If that never happened, nobody would care about URs. Now it's all people care about. Not saying that it's not important or that it shouldn't be accounted for because it should, but I find it funny how people care so much about it now compared to pre-COP.
Yeah, tell me how I'm wrong.
But anyway, Alissa got her title and a trip to Worlds, Caroline got her "gift", and the USFSA got their lady. So I guess it was win - win - win all the way around.
Speaking as a Mirai fan, you know I hate URs. But I can't get behind the argument that quality shouldn't matter. The reduced base value for < is very fair.
If this were the NFL, they would show us a mark, with the telestrator, where the in air rotation starts, and another mark where it ends.
Do the judges see the < or << before they award their GOE? Because they hit her pretty hard on that.
"Puccini cries out for spirals, but really good ones." ~ Dick Button, 1998 Worlds
Imo she was underscored in PE and In, both less than 7. NOT that my feelings matter in judging, but her performance was the only one that moved me at this event.
Did anybody (other than me ) even care about and mention Hughes' underrotations? I don't remember even Irina or her camp raising that issue.
By the way, Yukina Ota became Junior World champion massively underrotating every single triple jump in her program.
For one season they didn't but it created this really silly situation where skaters would get < and << but +1 and +2 GOEs sometimes making the judges look like fools so the ISU decided they should see it.
Although to be fair to the judges, spotting cheats is often very hard - if not downright impossible - without slo-mo.
I just feel that an UR has to be egregious for it to be dinged so badly. Sarah Hughes was the master of egregious URs, as she'd totally prerotate everything and then land 1/2 to 3/4 UR, especially on her flip and lutz. Maybe her toe was okay, and with edge jumps there's always a bit of PR.
As for tracings, remember in fall 1997 with all the Tara lutz controversy and what's his face (Tara's coach, Eldgredge's mentor figure) said Kwan did too, and Frank said to come over and look at Kwan's tracings. Well, to be honest, Kwan's tracings were also flutzy. They weren't as bad as Tara's since Tara made a perfect C with her left foot edge, but Kwan didn't have any visible outside edge tracing, and most always turned inward at takeoff. It's noticeable when you see a perfect lutz takeoff (Yebin Mok had a glorious lutz, perfect tracing, and perfect height, distance, etc). Sarah Hughes' lutz tracings practically made an O she was so inside the edge and PR.
And not every skater will leave easily visible tracings.
And honestly, we have HD cameras now so you know you can actually watch skaters' blades and how they move in air and when they take off and land exactly.
It's like counting everything in your head instead of using a calculator. Yes you can do it but why?
(Also in this case, the tracing method has failed so there. )
Okay, Ziggy, because I feel if someone repeatedly does a C or flutz into a lutz jump they shoud be HAMMERED. Kwan never was. And she NEVER EVER went on a BO edge for her lutz. EVER. Watch the tracings, though I'm sure you would just conjure up a conspiracy of the rest of the ladies. NO. I watched her time and time and time and time again. She NEVER achieved a BO edge for her lutz. Sometimes she flattened it, but that even was rare.
This isn't a Kwan bash, puhlease. But I sometimes think these hanger ons need to at least accept truth. Jeez. I NEVER saw a BO tracing on her lutz, and believe back in the day I was there at everything. It was obvious they'd give Kwan a pass so long as she sold her program and ended it with the Tarasova footwork with angst and emotion. Really, Kwan's lutz was a flip. Or a loop, depending on her takeoff.