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  1. #21

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    Doing triple loop as the second jump in combination is just not worth it. Same as Asada and Ando, who both stopped doing it because it was frequently downgraded. In fact, there is not many ladies at senior level who do it, because it tend to get often downgraded.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Thanks! I've been wondering what her coaches were thinking about Caroline's URs.

    I gotta say I have to agree with this. 3 Loop is very tricky in counting rotations.
    I think she was given credit last year at Nationals for her 3loop-3loop. Something changed; either her execution or the manner of judging.

  3. #23

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    Caroline's second loop was called underrotated at last year's Nationals - 3Lo+3Lo< (8.70 Base Value, 9.00 points).

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Doing triple loop as the second jump in combination is just not worth it. Same as Asada and Ando, who both stopped doing it because it was frequently downgraded. In fact, there is not many ladies at senior level who do it, because it tend to get often downgraded.
    I think Oppegard made some valid points and believe the ISU technical committee should "re-examine the issue" (and the sooner the better).
    Last edited by Sylvia; 02-02-2013 at 10:15 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Caroline's second loop was called underrotated at last year's Nationals - 3Lo+3Lo< (8.70 Base Value, 9.00 points).


    I think Oppegard made some valid points and believe the ISU technical committee should "re-examine the issue" (and the sooner the better).
    Though she stepped out of it, she did get full credit for the 3loop3loop combo at 4CC last year, iirc.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by carriecmu0503 View Post
    Though she stepped out of it, she did get full credit for the 3loop3loop combo at 4CC last year, iirc.
    Yes, 10.20 Base Value, - 1.60 GOE, received 8.60 points for the combo.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  6. #26

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    The thing is, though, both the caller and the judges found her combo lacking a bit this year. The -GOE comes from the judges. Not sure if they get to see things on replay or not. I know they used to towards the end of 6.0, but not sure about now.

    And, um, Lipinski's 3l3l was rotated a lot more than Caroline's, although I agree judges were too harsh on it. I think it should have been 3l-3l< instead of 3l<-3l<<.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  7. #27
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    How many places would she have moved up had it been fully credited?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    How many places would she have moved up had it been fully credited?
    More places that the overlords of USFSA would have liked.

    Why is it we are always arguing over whether Caroline got screwed over at Nationals? When do we get to argue over whether she was gifted?
    Last edited by Polymer Bob; 02-03-2013 at 02:22 AM.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    How many places would she have moved up had it been fully credited?
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=2013+ladies+sp+...ionals+skating
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  10. #30

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    If the base value of a 3r3r is still 10.20, then the addition of 6.40 to the 3.80 she received for the attempt would have raised Zhang's score to 56.39, which would've given her the seventh highest point total in the SP, ahead of Cesario and behind Siraj. Of course, this is assuming no positive GOE for the successful combination, the same PCS, the same GOEs for other elements, and the same scores for everyone else.

  11. #31
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    Which means she is viewed at 7th best AT BEST even after she would have landed the hardest combo of the night

    It is interesting with their tough approach on loop combos because Asada and Ando were doing much more fully rotated loop combos than Hughes and Slutskaya.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    I think Oppegard made some valid points and believe the ISU technical committee should "re-examine the issue" (and the sooner the better).
    The question is: Did Zhang get the < and << because of pre- or under-rotation?

    If it's the latter, than there isn't really anything to re-examine her. Move along.

    But if it's the former, then ISU should really prepare some guidelines on this.

    Because whilst you shouldn't really have any pre-rotation on toe jumps, you will always have some pre-rotation on the edge jumps. Such is the nature on the beast.

    On the axel, it's usually minimal, on the salchow you will usually see a little bit as well but on the loop, you can pretty much expect the skater to turn almost 1/2 before leaving the ice. It's physically not possible to perform the loop without pre-rotation.

    Technical specialists and controllers should know that.

    But to be honest, skaters pretty much never ever get < or << for take-offs even if they really should (Meissner winning Worlds... ).

    So my guess would be Zhang's issue was landings and not take-offs. If I can find a video link, I'll watch the combo in slo-mo.
    Last edited by Ziggy; 02-03-2013 at 09:58 AM.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because whilst you shouldn't really have any pre-rotation on toe jumps, you will always have some pre-rotation on the edge jumps. Such is the nature on the beast.

    On the axel, it's usually minimal, on the salchow you will usually see a little bit as well but on the loop, you can pretty much expect the skater to turn almost 1/2 before leaving the ice. It's physically not possible to perform the loop without pre-rotation.

    Technical specialists and controllers should know that.

    But it IS possible to do three full rotations from the point where the blade leaves the ice, regardless of pre-rotation, which would be a clean jump.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    But it IS possible to do three full rotations from the point where the blade leaves the ice, regardless of pre-rotation, which would be a clean jump.
    I dunno, I'd say anything between 1/4 and 1/2 is fair game on the loop take-off. So to land it backwards after exactly three rotations, you'd have to be doing it on a really strong curve, which I don't think is really viable. Thoughts from skaters/coaches?

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    The thing is, though, both the caller and the judges found her combo lacking a bit this year. The -GOE comes from the judges. Not sure if they get to see things on replay or not. I know they used to towards the end of 6.0, but not sure about now.

    And, um, Lipinski's 3l3l was rotated a lot more than Caroline's, although I agree judges were too harsh on it. I think it should have been 3l-3l< instead of 3l<-3l<<.
    My friend, a coach was sitting directly in front of where Caroline did the 3L-3L. Not only did she feel that the combo was completed from viewing it, she looked at the tracings on the ice and they were completed.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk9tingfan View Post
    My friend, a coach was sitting directly in front of where Caroline did the 3L-3L. Not only did she feel that the combo was completed from viewing it, she looked at the tracings on the ice and they were completed.
    So that says that she simply was dumped by the judges who are through giving her chances..

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I dunno, I'd say anything between 1/4 and 1/2 is fair game on the loop take-off. So to land it backwards after exactly three rotations, you'd have to be doing it on a really strong curve, which I don't think is really viable. Thoughts from skaters/coaches?
    Loops hold the take off edge and then leave from a toe pick. It's hard to explain exactly where you'd draw the line for pre-rotations since you do start turning on your toe pick even before you leave the ice. I would assume that's even more true as the second triple jump in a combo since you don't have as much leeway to use your arms/speed because a lot of this depends on how well you land the first jump and how much speed you carry into your second.

  18. #38

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    Caroline's SP at 2013 Nationals (combo called 3Lo<+3Lo<<): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhj4RKMSSH4

    Her SP at 2012 Nationals (combo called 3Lo+3Lo<): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtu_eBx40LE
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by apatinar View Post
    So that says that she simply was dumped by the judges who are through giving her chances..
    I think it's more than that, and it doesn't involve any kind of conspiracy and isn't limited to Zhang. There may be an issue with how the tech panels look at loop combinations. As has been noted in this thread, other skaters, including Miki Ando -- generally considered a good jumper -- have had loop combinations consistently downgraded. Eventually, Morozov told Ando to forget trying a triple-triple, it wasn't worth it. Knowledgeable people, with no axes to grind, thought Zhang rotated those triples.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Because whilst you shouldn't really have any pre-rotation on toe jumps,
    When the pick hits the ice on the toe-loop, the upper body is already rotated to be perpendicular to the direction of travel. If you freeze frame the moment the pick hits the ice on the other toe jumps, you'll see more or less a pre rotation by 1/2 turn of the upper body also.

    On the axel, it's usually minimal, on the salchow you will usually see a little bit as well but on the loop, you can pretty much expect the skater to turn almost 1/2 before leaving the ice.
    The salchow will often have more than a 1/2 pre-rotation, especially on the triple. I'm not sure why the poor loop is being picked on so much.

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