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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    How many places would she have moved up had it been fully credited?
    Two, possibly three, depending on what her GOE would have been.

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...0/results.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    Why is it we are always arguing over whether Caroline got screwed over at Nationals?
    Because you are a uber and refuse to accept her limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    When do we get to argue over whether she was gifted?
    Actually, it has been pointed out from time to time here on FSU that Zhang has been gifted with (1) positive, neutral, or insufficiently negative GOE on her mule-kick flutz, (formerly) mule-kick wonky flip, double axel, and traveled spins and (2) PCS out of proportion to her actual level of skating. You just choose not to take the bait.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Because you are a uber and refuse to accept her limitations.
    Actually it's "an" uber. And it sounds like we are dealing with a limitation of the human body, not of any skater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    Actually, it has been pointed out from time to time here on FSU that Zhang has been gifted with (1) positive, neutral, or insufficiently negative GOE on her mule-kick flutz, (formerly) mule-kick wonky flip, double axel, and traveled spins and (2) PCS out of proportion to her actual level of skating. You just choose not to take the bait.
    I have never seen an argument that Caroline was gifted at any Nationals. ISU events perhaps, usually after she used that ugly mule-kick to trounce girls who placed above her at Nationals.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    I dunno, I'd say anything between 1/4 and 1/2 is fair game on the loop take-off. So to land it backwards after exactly three rotations, you'd have to be doing it on a really strong curve, which I don't think is really viable. Thoughts from skaters/coaches?
    It's absolutely viable, check out the men. The ones who LAND on strong curves (and many of them do) are usually the ones who are clean, hence, no downgrade. Same with the triple axels: often (in fact, usually), if the skater is skating, say, toward the judges on takeoff, they "pre-rotate" a bit before the blade leaves the ice and land perpendicular to the judges on the landing. Full rotation.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    I have never seen an argument that Caroline was gifted at any Nationals.
    The classic example of Zhang's being gifted was 2009 Nationals, before her big growth spurt.

    Her free skate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XD6y-JhR-w

    Protocols: http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...-protocols.pdf

    Negative Grades of Execution for Jumps: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/jumps/compete.html (I'm not sure all of this is exactly as it was at the time, but it's close enough.)

    Errors for which final GOE must be negative Reduction/Other
    ....
    Starting or landing on two feet in a jump -2
    Stepping out of landing in a jump -2
    Touch down with both hands in a jump -2
    2 three turns in between (jump combo) -2
    Starting from wrong edge in F/Lz -2 to -3

    Errors for which final GOE is not restricted Reduction/Other
    Poor speed, height, distance, air position -1 to -2
    Under rotated -1 to -3
    Poor take-off -1 to -2
    Loss of flow/rhythm between jumps (combo/seq.) -1 to -2
    Weak landing (bad pos./wrong edge/scratching etc) -1 to -2
    Long preparation -1 to -2
    Touch down with one hand or free foot -1
    Unclear edge at take-off in F/Lz (sign “!”) -1 to -2
    Negative Grades of Execution for Spins: http://gofigureskating.com/skills/spins/compete.html

    Deductions can be based on inconsistent speed, not enough rotations, weak positions, not centered...
    Here are some examples of deductions

    Fall during the spin –3, –GOE
    Touch down with both hands –2, –GOE
    Re-centering of the spin –1 to –3
    Touch down with free foot or one hand –1
    Traveling –1 to –3
    Inconsistent speed of rotation (eg slows down) –1
    Less than required revolutions –1 to –3
    Change of foot poorly executed (eg moving to an intermediate pos. during the change in a sit spin) –1 to –3
    Weak or poor position(s)–1 to –3
    Some of the more questionable marks for GOE:

    3F(!)+3T< Unclear edge on flip, mule kick on flip, underrotated triple toe loop. Could have received -3's. Only one judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1.
    3Z(!)+2T Looked back before entering the first jump, unclear edge on lutz, mule kick on flipp. Could have received -3's. Only judge gave her a -3. Most gave her a -1. Two judges gave her a 0.
    2A Very slow entrance. Could have received -1's, and that is what most judges did giver her. Two judges, however, gave her 0's.
    CCoSp4 Traveled all over the place. Could have received -2 or -3, but all of the judges gave her +1 or +2.
    3F(!) Unclear edge, mule kick. Could have received -3's. One judge gave her a -2. The others gave her a -1 or a 0.

    And let's take a look at how the judges marked her on PCS. I've marked the Scores of Panel with underlining and put what I believe are the most questionable scores in boldface:

    Skating Skills 8.00 6.75 5.25 7.50 6.00 7.25 6.75 7.75 5.75 6.82
    Transitions 7.75 6.00 4.50 6.75 4.75 7.00 6.25 7.00 5.75 6.21
    Performance/Execution 8.25 6.50 6.75 6.75 6.25 7.00 6.75 8.00 5.75 6.86
    Choreography 8.25 6.25 5.00 7.00 6.25 7.00 7.00 7.50 6.00 6.71
    Interpretation 8.50 7.00 6.50 7.00 6.25 7.25 7.00 7.75 5.75 6.96
    http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/appA-IJS.pdf

    Program components are marked on a scale of 0.25 to 10.00 in increments of 0.25, with a separate mark given for each program component, of which:

    1 = Very poor
    2 = Poor
    3 = Weak
    4 = Fair
    5 = Average
    6 = Above average
    7 = Good
    8 = Very good
    9 = Superior
    10 = Outstanding
    The judge who gave Zhang PCS of 8.00 7.75 8.25 8.25 8.50 gave Ashley Wagner, who won the Free Skate, marks of only 7.75 6.75 7.50 7.25 7.25.

    Yeah, right.
    Last edited by Vagabond; 02-04-2013 at 12:12 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    Knowledgeable people, with no axes to grind, thought Zhang rotated those triples.
    For a lot of people the combinations might have "looked" or "felt" rotated. But what matters is the hard facts: the slo-mo.

    Sylvia has kindly linked the videos but you can't slo-mo on YT.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    When the pick hits the ice on the toe-loop, the upper body is already rotated to be perpendicular to the direction of travel. If you freeze frame the moment the pick hits the ice on the other toe jumps, you'll see more or less a pre rotation by 1/2 turn of the upper body also.
    You are right but I was talking about the blade.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    The salchow will often have more than a 1/2 pre-rotation, especially on the triple. I'm not sure why the poor loop is being picked on so much.
    It will have some but I don't think anywhere near as much as the loop, from my observations anyway,

    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    It's absolutely viable, check out the men. The ones who LAND on strong curves (and many of them do) are usually the ones who are clean, hence, no downgrade. Same with the triple axels: often (in fact, usually), if the skater is skating, say, toward the judges on takeoff, they "pre-rotate" a bit before the blade leaves the ice and land perpendicular to the judges on the landing. Full rotation.
    Ok, fair enough. If true, this would make Oppegard's point moot.

    Or in other words: 'She's trying a difficult combo, which she can't really fully rotate it because her jump technique is not exactly top drawer but we still want her to get full credit so we'll blame the system.'

    I found a clip of Zhang's SP now so will check soon whether that was the case or not and report back.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    For a lot of people the combinations might have "looked" or "felt" rotated. But what matters is the hard facts: the slo-mo.
    ...
    I found a clip of Zhang's SP now so will check soon whether that was the case or not and report back.
    The video that is reviewed in slo-mo by the technical panel is different (not filmed at the same angle) as the TV broadcast video, but we all know this, right?

    For variety's sake, I personally would like to see more triple-triple combos attempted that end with loop rather than toe.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  7. #47
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    Ok, I've just downloaded and watched Zhang's Nationals SP video and I think the underrotation was quite apparent. Even without the slo-mo, if you have a trained eye for this kind of thing (as the technical panel members should), you could notice the landings were skiddy and didn't have a lot of flow out, which should ring alarm bells. Also, she didn't get a lot of height or have a lot of speed in so you'd have to have great timing and very sharp rotation in order to make it.

    Upon reviewing it frame-by-frame:

    First 3loop Take-Off
    http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6...slsp11caro.jpg

    Not sure if you can see it from this picture but if you watch the video, she's skating on a curve, not parallel to the boards but a little more inwards (towards the camera)

    (Btw, this is what I was talking about when I said loops pretty much have to be 1/2 pre-rotated).

    First 3loop Landing
    http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6...slsp11caro.jpg

    Is it the pre-rotation that was an issue? No. Zhang should be landing this jump backwards, turned slightly more inwards towards the camera, in comparison to the boards. You can see in this picture that her blade touches the ice way earlier.

    Second 3loop Take-Off
    http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/6...slsp11caro.jpg

    Here she pre-rotates more than 1/2 (again, you have to watch the video yourself to see the whole curve). The take-off edge is on a quite pronounced inward curve this time (towards the camera again), more so than before.

    Second 3loop Landing
    http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6...slsp11caro.jpg

    Blade touches the ice and she still needs to do more than 1/2 rotation (she should be landing backwards on a quite pronounced inward curve towards the camera). If you watch it frame by frame (you can do it on Media Player Classic by pressing Ctrl+Right Arrow) you can see that she rotates over 1/2 on the ice before coming out of the jump.

    Based on watching that combination frame-by-frame, to me she has clearly and unquestionably deserved < on the first jump and << on the other. And that's not even taking the pre-rotation into consideration at all. Just the under-rotation alone. So the technical panel did give her allowance for the 1/2 pre-rotation on the loop and she was only required to complete 2 1/2 revolutions in the air (so you can't say ISU is being too harsh on the edge jumps). I see absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with those calls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    For variety's sake, I personally would like to see more triple-triple combos attempted that end with loop rather than toe.
    I agree with you but if the skaters can't do it, they can't do it and it's not the system's fault.

    I think the problem here is not the right risk vs. reward ratio. Loop combos are much much harder than the toe combos but they don't get any extra credit. So it isn't really worth the risk at all.

    A number of male skaters did have fully rotated 3/3 loop combos credited a number of times though. Off the top of my head:
    Przemyslaw Domanski
    Kevin Reynolds
    Joey Russell
    Last edited by Ziggy; 02-03-2013 at 11:30 PM.

  8. #48

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    I blame Sarah Hughes beating Irina in SLC. If that never happened, nobody would care about URs. Now it's all people care about. Not saying that it's not important or that it shouldn't be accounted for because it should, but I find it funny how people care so much about it now compared to pre-COP.

    Yeah, tell me how I'm wrong.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
    The classic example of Zhang's being gifted was 2009 Nationals, before her big growth spurt.
    Yes, what a wonderful gift she received at 2009 Nationals. The judges pumped up Alissa's PCS because they wanted a "lady" to win, and bumped Caroline off the World team.
    But anyway, Alissa got her title and a trip to Worlds, Caroline got her "gift", and the USFSA got their lady. So I guess it was win - win - win all the way around.

  10. #50

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    Speaking as a Mirai fan, you know I hate URs. But I can't get behind the argument that quality shouldn't matter. The reduced base value for < is very fair.

    If this were the NFL, they would show us a mark, with the telestrator, where the in air rotation starts, and another mark where it ends.

    Do the judges see the < or << before they award their GOE? Because they hit her pretty hard on that.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  11. #51
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    Imo she was underscored in PE and In, both less than 7. NOT that my feelings matter in judging, but her performance was the only one that moved me at this event.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sk9tingfan View Post
    My friend, a coach was sitting directly in front of where Caroline did the 3L-3L. Not only did she feel that the combo was completed from viewing it, she looked at the tracings on the ice and they were completed.
    That's a great idea. In the future, they can use skaters' tracings to judge rotation. They would need cameras mounted on the ceiling pointed straight down. I can't see why that wouldn't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    That's a great idea. In the future, they can use skaters' tracings to judge rotation. They would need cameras mounted on the ceiling pointed straight down. I can't see why that wouldn't work.
    I think that is the most obvious way to clarify a jump. Also the same wrt correct edge take offs. I loved going to live competitions and even just watching them warm-up you see who has a deep lutz edge, who is skidding too much on the axel take-off (Lysacek's axel tracings were quite interesting)

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I blame Sarah Hughes beating Irina in SLC. If that never happened, nobody would care about URs. Now it's all people care about. Not saying that it's not important or that it shouldn't be accounted for because it should, but I find it funny how people care so much about it now compared to pre-COP.

    Yeah, tell me how I'm wrong.
    Why do you think it has anything to do with Irina? The judging system was completely different back then. There were no technical panels, no slo-mo replays and a lot of less noticeable things like this were ignored.

    Did anybody (other than me ) even care about and mention Hughes' underrotations? I don't remember even Irina or her camp raising that issue.

    By the way, Yukina Ota became Junior World champion massively underrotating every single triple jump in her program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Do the judges see the < or << before they award their GOE? Because they hit her pretty hard on that.
    They do, yes.

    For one season they didn't but it created this really silly situation where skaters would get < and << but +1 and +2 GOEs sometimes making the judges look like fools so the ISU decided they should see it.

    Although to be fair to the judges, spotting cheats is often very hard - if not downright impossible - without slo-mo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob View Post
    That's a great idea. In the future, they can use skaters' tracings to judge rotation. They would need cameras mounted on the ceiling pointed straight down. I can't see why that wouldn't work.
    Yes, because tracings are always easily visible, especially once 7 or 10 skaters have already skated since the last ice resurface...

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    Yes, because tracings are always easily visible, especially once 7 or 10 skaters have already skated since the last ice resurface...
    Hmm, I disagree. There is such a thing called 'resurfacing' or am I confusing that with another sport? You don't have to worry about 20 lutz tracings all in one spot. And it should be quite easy to follow a skater into the takeoff so that the edge is pretty well documented. If tennis can follow one shot on recall, so should skating be able to follow a tracing. Just saying.

    I just feel that an UR has to be egregious for it to be dinged so badly. Sarah Hughes was the master of egregious URs, as she'd totally prerotate everything and then land 1/2 to 3/4 UR, especially on her flip and lutz. Maybe her toe was okay, and with edge jumps there's always a bit of PR.

    As for tracings, remember in fall 1997 with all the Tara lutz controversy and what's his face (Tara's coach, Eldgredge's mentor figure) said Kwan did too, and Frank said to come over and look at Kwan's tracings. Well, to be honest, Kwan's tracings were also flutzy. They weren't as bad as Tara's since Tara made a perfect C with her left foot edge, but Kwan didn't have any visible outside edge tracing, and most always turned inward at takeoff. It's noticeable when you see a perfect lutz takeoff (Yebin Mok had a glorious lutz, perfect tracing, and perfect height, distance, etc). Sarah Hughes' lutz tracings practically made an O she was so inside the edge and PR.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    Hmm, I disagree. There is such a thing called 'resurfacing' or am I confusing that with another sport?
    Every 12 skaters. So good luck noticing tracings after 10 skaters have skated.

    And not every skater will leave easily visible tracings.

    And honestly, we have HD cameras now so you know you can actually watch skaters' blades and how they move in air and when they take off and land exactly.

    It's like counting everything in your head instead of using a calculator. Yes you can do it but why?

    (Also in this case, the tracing method has failed so there. )

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    Okay, Ziggy, because I feel if someone repeatedly does a C or flutz into a lutz jump they shoud be HAMMERED. Kwan never was. And she NEVER EVER went on a BO edge for her lutz. EVER. Watch the tracings, though I'm sure you would just conjure up a conspiracy of the rest of the ladies. NO. I watched her time and time and time and time again. She NEVER achieved a BO edge for her lutz. Sometimes she flattened it, but that even was rare.

    This isn't a Kwan bash, puhlease. But I sometimes think these hanger ons need to at least accept truth. Jeez. I NEVER saw a BO tracing on her lutz, and believe back in the day I was there at everything. It was obvious they'd give Kwan a pass so long as she sold her program and ended it with the Tarasova footwork with angst and emotion. Really, Kwan's lutz was a flip. Or a loop, depending on her takeoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I blame Sarah Hughes beating Irina in SLC. If that never happened, nobody would care about URs. Now it's all people care about. Not saying that it's not important or that it shouldn't be accounted for because it should, but I find it funny how people care so much about it now compared to pre-COP.

    Yeah, tell me how I'm wrong.
    Actually perhaps blame Tara. Didn't they give judges slo-mo replay sometime after everyone became obsessed with her flutz (and ladies flutzing in general)?
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 02-05-2013 at 08:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    Okay, Ziggy, because I feel if someone repeatedly does a C or flutz into a lutz jump they shoud be HAMMERED. Kwan never was. And she NEVER EVER went on a BO edge for her lutz. EVER. Watch the tracings, though I'm sure you would just conjure up a conspiracy of the rest of the ladies. NO. I watched her time and time and time and time again. She NEVER achieved a BO edge for her lutz. Sometimes she flattened it, but that even was rare.

    This isn't a Kwan bash, puhlease. But I sometimes think these hanger ons need to at least accept truth. Jeez. I NEVER saw a BO tracing on her lutz, and believe back in the day I was there at everything. It was obvious they'd give Kwan a pass so long as she sold her program and ended it with the Tarasova footwork with angst and emotion. Really, Kwan's lutz was a flip. Or a loop, depending on her takeoff.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...YqmcDFpM#t=81s
    "It was a good solid outside edge too"
    "Sure was!!"

    Dick and Peggy sure don't agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Actually perhaps blame Tara. Didn't they give judges slo-mo replay after everyone became obsessed with her flutz?
    I might agree except time and time again Kwan and Flutzy were credited for "lutzes" when anyone watching their practices could SEE as in visual PROOF they were not doing lutzes. This new system seems to let the favorites get by(like Asada) and ding the Nagasus of this world. It is still a very prickly judging. Those they WANT don't seem to get the deductions. The rest, like Mirai, are hosed.

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