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  1. #41

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  2. #42
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    Jill sure did a lot of single axels. I still vote for her over Leistner. Leistner had nothing.

    Jill

    2F
    3T
    1A+3S (small step out)
    ina bauer+1A
    2F
    3S
    2T
    1A
    1A+0.5L+1S+1S+2L (slight stumble and sequence delivered with low energy and no finesse)


    Claudia
    2A
    3F (fall)
    3T+2T
    2S+2T
    3L (sort of completed on one foot)
    3S
    3T
    split+2T+2T SEQ
    2S (out of energy, barely avoiding lurching)

    Edit made per Orbitz.
    Last edited by TheIronLady; 06-16-2013 at 03:28 AM.

  3. #43
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    Jill should have been 8th or something at the 89 Worlds. What a weak performance, and what incredibly boring music. What is it, a horse march.

  4. #44
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    Jill's final jump sequence was a 1axel-0.5loop-one foot sal - 1sal - 2loop. It's not possible to do a 0.5L-0.5L-0.5L sequence unless the skater is able to do a change of edge after the landing and jump in both directions.

  5. #45
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    I would like to see all the performances, but I do find it amazing nobody was deemed good enough to beat Jill and Claudia's skates at those Worlds. Must have been their lead in figures and their strong shorts that guaranteed them medals. I certainly hope the judges didnt place them 2nd or 3rd in the long. Evelyn Grossmann had a much better long than both and I saw hers. Kristi perhaps too although Kristi didnt deserve to be at Worlds that year to begin with.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatesindreams View Post
    Because of the program's extreme difficulty, Burge ranked it [Ito's LP] ahead of Thomas's 1987 show-stopper at the world championships in Cincinnati.
    Thomas's 87 World LP was considered a "show-stopper"? Really? Kat won the LP with the performance of her career.


    Since the jump [3A] requires extreme upper-body strength, most women can't do it.
    I keep hearing this argument as to why women generally can't do 2A. But skaters like Mao, Nelidia, and Meissner don't look like they have more upper body strength than most of their peers.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Jill's final jump sequence was a 1axel-0.5loop-one foot sal - 1sal - 2loop. It's not possible to do a 0.5L-0.5L-0.5L sequence unless the skater is able to do a change of edge after the landing and jump in both directions.
    That would have been a much better combination.

  8. #48
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    It was a royal crime Tonya was not at Worlds that year, especialy with how she skated at Nationals. Kristi with her figures was never going to be any contender that year, so sending her was pointless. Tonya outskated Kristi at Nationals that year in both figures and free skating and still lost to her; and so far outskated Jill in free skating and still was behind her in both short and long programs, not just figures which was understandable. The kind of heavy internal National politics that poor Tonya had to deal with for many years. Her own problems were not all her own doing as some suggest. She was held back in a huge way by politics from 86-88 too.

    With her strong figures, and great freeskating Tonya would have won a medal that year, and could have even possibly challenged for the gold. What a waste and foolish move by the USFSA.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustafinabars View Post
    I would like to see all the performances, but I do find it amazing nobody was deemed good enough to beat Jill and Claudia's skates at those Worlds. Must have been their lead in figures and their strong shorts that guaranteed them medals. I certainly hope the judges didnt place them 2nd or 3rd in the long. Evelyn Grossmann had a much better long than both and I saw hers. Kristi perhaps too although Kristi didnt deserve to be at Worlds that year to begin with.
    Yes, they were 2nd and 3rd. Yamaguchi deserved second (she received fourth). Trenary probably deserved third, but I am confident she beat Leistner. It's ridiculous to compare those two and just count up the jumps in Leistner's favor. Leistner is like beef jerky doing triples.

  10. #50
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    Well Jill is generally more a quality skater than Claudia I agree. However Jill's free program that year was the most boring thing she ever did with horrible music. So that along with Claudia doing more triples and making less mistakes, I would put Claudia ahead of the two. I still think both were overmarked though.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    How did Claudia Leistner get 2nd place in the free skate at the 1989 worlds? Yamaguchi and Trenary at least look like they had a pulse. Claudia had a creaky 3L. Was that all it took? And a panel of mostly European judges? I love her standing at the end of the rink and gyrating to disco while she took a nap-length break, but that would be hard to add that to the base mark. Are there arguments for her ranking her above Jill and Kristi's free skates? And what about Jill versus Kristi? How would you re-rank this?
    I haven't seen this competition in a while and it's shocking how bad the judging used to be, particularly in ladies, where judges seemed to let the figures placements influence the SP and FP placements (for example, the judging of Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics). I'm having great difficulty finding a non-reputation based reason for why Yamaguchi's free program was placed less than second. On Leistner vs. Trenary, they were both dreadful and probably should have been behind Evelyn Grossman, but between the two of them, I'd probably give it to Trenary just because she should have been miles ahead on the second mark.

    The SP judging was also pretty bad. I think I would have had Yamaguchi winning the SP and I've always been fairly meh on her skating overall. But that was a program well-suited for her at that stage in her career, presented well with lovely arms, good spins and the most difficult combination in the competition. This was the first time I've ever seen Ito's SP from this competition and even thought I am a huge fan of Midori, I have to agree with Toller Cranston's commentary that the judges were clearly in her corner to give her the win in the SP...because even though I know that none of them would have realistically gone for Yamaguchi, Trenary really should have beaten Ito in the SP. Ito gave up her big advantage on the jumps by inexplicably only doing a double toe-triple toe combination and while that was still more difficult and better quality than Trenary's combination, the only other element I'd give Ito in a head to head comparison is the double axel. Ito's spiral sequence particularly stood out as not being well done (wobbly, poor positions) and her program was a very poor choice for her. The 6.0s on the technical mark were pretty outrageous. Although at least in that case, it did lead to the right overall result - if Trenary had beaten Ito in the SP and the FP had the same rankings, then Leistner would have ended up as World champ

  12. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erin View Post

    The SP judging was also pretty bad. I think I would have had Yamaguchi winning the SP and I've always been fairly meh on her skating overall. But that was a program well-suited for her at that stage in her career, presented well with lovely arms, good spins and the most difficult combination in the competition. This was the first time I've ever seen Ito's SP from this competition and even thought I am a huge fan of Midori, I have to agree with Toller Cranston's commentary that the judges were clearly in her corner to give her the win in the SP...because even though I know that none of them would have realistically gone for Yamaguchi, Trenary really should have beaten Ito in the SP. Ito gave up her big advantage on the jumps by inexplicably only doing a double toe-triple toe combination and while that was still more difficult and better quality than Trenary's combination, the only other element I'd give Ito in a head to head comparison is the double axel. Ito's spiral sequence particularly stood out as not being well done (wobbly, poor positions) and her program was a very poor choice for her. The 6.0s on the technical mark were pretty outrageous. Although at least in that case, it did lead to the right overall result - if Trenary had beaten Ito in the SP and the FP had the same rankings, then Leistner would have ended up as World champ
    Ito always did that combination in her SPs (not 3t-3t, which she did in the LP, or the 3t-2t which most ladies did if they were able to do a 3t in combination), so I don't know how you can say she gave up her advantage. I don't agree that either Yamaguchi (too raw, and tiny jumps) or Trenary (weak jumper) should have placed higher than Ito in the SP. The quality of jumps cannot be compared. Ito's only real weakness was the spiral sequence, and it was not given a lot of weight under the 6.0 (and it has disappeared from the COP now). I don't think there was a conspiracy to give Ito the gold; she just skated lights out in that competition, and had a respectable figures portion that year.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Thomas's 87 World LP was considered a "show-stopper"? Really? Kat won the LP with the performance of her career.




    I keep hearing this argument as to why women generally can't do 2A. But skaters like Mao, Nelidia, and Meissner don't look like they have more upper body strength than most of their peers.
    Funny that you put Meissner in the same bracket as Midori Ito, when it came to 3A. In my book, Meissner did not land a 3A in a competition; the judges ratified it to either say another US lady landed it, or to just give her full credit for trying, even though she was at least 0.5 rotation shy.

    I don't remember what Nelidina looked like, but Ito had a very compact body, and all of her jumps had a lot of power. IMO both she and Tonya were exceptional athletes.

  14. #54
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    It says on Wikipedia in the entries for both Isabelle Brasseur and Lloyd Eisler, that they were 7th at the 1988 Worlds and 14th at the 1989 Worlds. I looked it up since I thought they had placed lower in '89.

  15. #55

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    I am still surprised to find out that Kristi Yamaguchi was pairs skater as well.
    Guess I am not a great skating chronicle
    As of March 2013 - no longer scared of TAHbKA or Andrey aka Pushkin

  16. #56
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    Leistner actually lost 2nd place to Trenary in the SP only on a 5-4 split. Had she gotten 1 more judge over Jill in the short she would have won the World title even with that scary bad LP. Claudia actually beat Jill on elements scores in the short program, even with the same jumps, but lost to her on the presentation. One judge gave Claudia 5.8 for elements and 5.6 for presentation. Had that judge just dropped to a 5.7 for presentation rather than to a 5.6 Claudia would in fact have been 2nd in the SP and won the World title, which is a scary thought, but something few people know.

    IMO Midori definitely deserved to win the short. Her program was kind of blah but the short is about elements. A double toe-triple toe is still much harder than a triple toe-double toe that Leistner, Trenary, and Lebedeva all did. Ito had not only the best jumps and the strongest spins of all the top skaters that night, and her weak spiral sequence was more than compensated for. Claudia had a wonky landing on her double axel and a wonky ending. Jill has mediocre quality jumps even when landed which is what held her back even when she was doing as hard or harder jumps than most of the other top skaters in the Thomas-Witt era, although this was one of her best short programs. Neither Claudia or Jill had spins nearly as strong as Ito's program. I think Lebedeva was almost unfairly marked. Her technical elements were excellent that night and the 2nd best after Ito, but the program was a huge bore on the other hand. 5th place in the short for Yamaguchi was about right even with her triple lutz combo. She had strong and consistent (albeit not yet spectacular or very big, or with much flow) jumps, but also a ton of holes in her skating at that point, and did not even deserve to be at Worlds over Tonya Harding in the first place.

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Leistner actually lost 2nd place to Trenary in the SP only on a 5-4 split. Had she gotten 1 more judge over Jill in the short she would have won the World title even with that scary bad LP. Claudia actually beat Jill on elements scores in the short program, even with the same jumps, but lost to her on the presentation. One judge gave Claudia 5.8 for elements and 5.6 for presentation. Had that judge just dropped to a 5.7 for presentation rather than to a 5.6 Claudia would in fact have been 2nd in the SP and won the World title, which is a scary thought, but something few people know.
    That is the most horrifying thing I've ever read on this or any other sports board. It would have taken away Midori's only world title and irreparably damaged the sport forever.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Ito always did that combination in her SPs (not 3t-3t, which she did in the LP, or the 3t-2t which most ladies did if they were able to do a 3t in combination), so I don't know how you can say she gave up her advantage.
    Ito didn't always do that combination - for 1984 through 1988 Worlds (and possibly earlier), she always had a triple loop in her combination in the short, either double loop-triple loop or triple loop-double toe, depending on what the required double jump was in the SP. Since there was no required jump in 1989, she could have done either of these (or a triple lutz-double toe for that matter, but not triple toe-triple toe, which wasn't allowed in the SP until 1997). Overall, I just thought she looked tentative and uncomfortable during that SP whereas Jill and Kristi skated with more confidence and command of the ice. Midori didn't have any of the spark that she showed in the FP. I don't think there was a conspiracy, just that the judges did seem fairly favourably disposed towards her.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    It says on Wikipedia in the entries for both Isabelle Brasseur and Lloyd Eisler, that they were 7th at the 1988 Worlds and 14th at the 1989 Worlds. I looked it up since I thought they had placed lower in '89.
    Those Wikipedia entries are incorrect - this one has the correct standings:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Wo..._Championships

    They were 7th both years, but the field in 1989 was much weaker, so a 7th was much more disappointing in 1989. Of the 6 teams ahead of B&E in 1988, 4 had retired and Selezneva & Makarov were also not at Worlds (injured?). So to finish 7th again meant that they had lost ground to 5 teams. It probably hurt even more that Landry & Johnston had won the silver medal given that they had finished behind Brasseur & Eisler at Canadians two months earlier. Given all of that, it's not unreasonable that Brasseur & Eisler could have expected a podium finish with a good skate, so 7th place (out of 11th teams) was really a disaster.

  19. #59
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    Didnt Landry & Johnston skate poorly at the Canadians that year though? I dont think the result there neccessarily proved Brasseur & Eisler were the better team. Although given the field that year even a then immature Brasseur & Eisler definitely had a shot at the silver or bronze with a good competition.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    That is the most horrifying thing I've ever read on this or any other sports board. It would have taken away Midori's only world title and irreparably damaged the sport forever.
    I think if that happened it would have been horrifying, but Leistner winning wasn't what that SP scoring was indicating. The judges knew what they were doing. They were trying to help Ito by cheating for Leistner in the SP. They were not trying to set Leistner up to win. You can see that for the FS Leistner was overscored, but I think all the judges knew Ito would win.

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