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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    The longer it takes a student to earn a degree, the higher the risk that the student will not finish the degree. Ohio is planning to cut remedial classes in order to speed things along. Yes, that will work out well.
    I read an article recently about some programs (in The Chronicle, of course ), and I thought they were doing more remedial stuff. Or at least I there was more pre-freshman stuff to help students get up to speed.

    But how do you deal with the fact that more students need to work more to pay for college, which slows them down, and the push to improve 4 year graduation rates, all at the same time? Other than to reduce tuition.
    Creating drama!

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    The Chronicle of Higher Education is a newspaper for people who work in higher ed. As with most newspapers, the headlines are written by editors and do not always accurately reflect the content of the article itself.
    The article is actually from Inside Higher Education, but that aims for the same demographics/occupations.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffisjeff View Post
    I read an article recently about some programs (in The Chronicle, of course ), and I thought they were doing more remedial stuff. Or at least I there was more pre-freshman stuff to help students get up to speed.
    They want high schools to do a better job of prepping students for college work. I've been hearing that one for years.

    They want to eliminate remedial classes altogether; they want colleges to provide free short-term seminars to get students up to speed.

    They are also requiring that schools use SAT and ACT scores to determine placement rather than placement exams because they have determined that there is a pretty good percentage of students who do better on those exams than on the placement tests.

    All of these proposals completely ignore the nontraditional student, of whom there are many and more are coming in every year, who are more likely to need remedial courses than traditional students are. The older the student, the more likely the student will need remedial courses. High school prep and ACT/SAT scores aren't going to do anything for them, and some of them need a LOT of remediation, particularly in math. But no one cares about nontrads.

    There is a group that wants to give credit for remedial courses so that they count toward graduation.

    There is another group that wants to eliminate all this at the universities and dump it all on community colleges. That plan has been around for a while, but both universities and community colleges have balked, and students aren't too pleased, either.

    They have also determined that student success in freshman comp and freshman math are excellent indicators of likely graduation, so there is tremendous pressure on math and English to ensure that all students get good grades in those courses.

    Never have I seen so many people who should know better apply post hoc fallacies in so many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffisjeff View Post
    But how do you deal with the fact that more students need to work more to pay for college, which slows them down, and the push to improve 4 year graduation rates, all at the same time? Other than to reduce tuition.
    Hell if I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    The article is actually from Inside Higher Education, but that aims for the same demographics/occupations.
    Oops. I always get them confused.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  4. #44
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    I can't believe some schools are planning on getting rid of remedial courses. I really needed remedial math courses. I had to take basic algebra twice in junior college. On the other hand, in my honors junior college comp class, we were taught how to write an essay as if we were fifth graders: underline the thesis, only have six sentences per paragraph, that kind of thing. Pretty ridiculous.

    I got pretty good grades (very high GPA in both my majors) once I transferred to a four year university. When I was in junior college, I paid for it myself. I did poorly, though I blame myself for that entirely (and some very poor math professors). For university, my parents took out loans as my dad firmly believed it was his job to pay for it; his dad did not pay for his college, but for his sister and brother instead. In high school, I was not prepared for college work at all unless it was an AP class. Our honors/college prep classes were the same as the regular classes, where we did not learn how to think critically, write well reasoned papers, or anything of the sort. The first real paper I wrote was in my junior year when I transferred to a four year university. Thank God I took some AP courses and was on the academic decathlon team in high school (where we did a lot of writing), or else I would have been totally screwed. I also went to an academically oriented magnet high school to boot.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    I don't know why people feel the need to point out that generalizations do not apply to everyone and there are exceptions to the rules and and and and.
    I think they react to the sensational headline and get defensive. We see this all the time about pretty much every study that gets posted here.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    I can't believe some schools are planning on getting rid of remedial courses.
    It's not just some schools; it's a lot of schools. Ohio isn't alone; Kansas will no longer fund remedial classes for its state colleges (we are headed for that) and Connecticut, Tennessee, and one other state that I can't remember at the moment are all on board with getting rid of remedial courses. And other states are looking into this as well; California has a HUGE problem with remedial courses.

    The argument goes like this--students who take remedial classes are more likely to drop out and far less likely to complete degrees on time if they do finish. The problem, therefore, is remedial classes.

    Think I am crazy? Read on:

    https://blogs.uchicago.edu/uei/learn...es_a_poi.shtml
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1552313.html
    http://news.yahoo.com/colleges-try-f...191851953.html

    Complete College America is pushing all of this really hard, among other groups.

    If it is true that paying your kids' tuition and expenses correlates with higher graduation rates, you can be sure that IF a policy were to come from the research, it would lean toward making parents pay all the tuition and expenses. The governments involved in higher ed couldn't care less what grades students get, but they absolutely want the graduation rates to improve.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  7. #47
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    I believe one of the best gifts you can give your children is to help them graduate college with NO DEBT. Being saddled with enormous debt right out of college when it is so difficult to get a job is unbelievably stressful for young adults ... loans are coming due and they have little work or low paying jobs. If you are capable of financing college undergraduate costs, without sacrificing your own retirement, do it. But only pay for what's absolutely necessary (e.g. tuition, books, computer, housing and meals). Anything else that a student wants should be their responsibility. Hence they will need to have a part-time job or a summer job that adds enough money into their coffer to pay for a car, gas, auto insurance, recreational activities, phone, etc.). This way the student is not getting an entirely free ride and they learn the value of work while not being horribly endebted.

    Many years ago I taught part-time at our local state university, and I noticed that the students who had to work to finance their education did worse academically than those who did not have to spread their time so thinly. It's very hard to have time for one's studies when working 20-40 hrs/wk.

    This study irks me because we paid for our kids' college, but they valued education so highly that they did not goof off and they graduated with good GPAs. They both had merit scholarships that paid about 20% of the tuition, and they had to maintain a 3.0 GPA to keep the scholarships. While in college they focused on getting internships and later on getting into grad and vet school. The finance issue had little to do with their motivation to do well academically. I think having highly educated parents as well as stellar teachers and programs in their K-12 education had more to do with their college success than did the money.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by maatTheViking View Post

    In Denmark, everyone gets a state stipend, plus free tuition. The grades are obviously a wide spread, some people do well, some do poorly.

    One of the big factors I have seen is whether or not your parents have any college degree - people from non-academic families seem to struggle more to adjust, and have less support (some have none, aka why are you wasting your time, I did fine without a degree)
    Does Denmark have the educational system like in Germany and Sweden where kids are tracked early and split into different programs, with a very small percentage in what would be a college track in the US? Although high schools tend to have college prep versus non-academic tracks and vocational tracks, and there are special schools, like arts-based and alternative schools that start earlier, kids aren't tracked in elementary school, and many students who didn't take the college prep track in high school can go to college, whether a four-year or a two-year college.

    A broader range of people in the US are college-bound than are people in European systems that have fairly rigid tracks.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  9. #49

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    Good point. In the US, if you can get in, you can go. This has made it financially attractive for the for profit schools to admit everyone.
    AceOn6, the golf loving skating fan

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    ...in my honors junior college comp class, we were taught how to write an essay as if we were fifth graders: underline the thesis, only have six sentences per paragraph, that kind of thing. Pretty ridiculous.
    If my university students could all do that much, I'd give them a prize. And I teach upper-division classes.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    If my university students could all do that much, I'd give them a prize. And I teach upper-division classes.
    I taught a college technical journalism class for science/technical majors, and it was appalling how many students could not write a coherent paragraph. I think U.S. high schools are graduating a lot of students with sub-par writing skills just to get them out of their hair. A lot of these college students need to take remedial writing to get basic skills they will need on a job. That said, I did not treat these sub-par students any differently than the rest. If they needed more help, they got it in my office or through study sessions where we covered basic grammar and writing principles (stuff I learned when I was in high school). By the end of the course, most were able to do a small research project and write up the results in a scientific journal style.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanie View Post
    On the other hand, in my honors junior college comp class, we were taught how to write an essay as if we were fifth graders: underline the thesis, only have six sentences per paragraph, that kind of thing. Pretty ridiculous.
    I can only speak to the school system here, but I wish they taught that more effectively here, in 5th grade. When I was in school, we learned to write a cohesive sentence, paragraph, composition. When my kids were in elementary school, the teachers expected the parents t teach the kids how to write. They got a composition technique book, but little instruction other than grading of the paper. Yes, they were getting algebra in 5th grade, but....

  13. #53

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    I think it depends totally on the individual. If the student is responsible they will feel an obligation to make the most of their parents' expenditure and get out and be self-supporting as soon as possible. If the student is lazy or unmotivated it will allow them to continue to drift. I've seen it happen both ways. You have to know your child when making the decision to support them through college or not.

    College is difficult for those who lack a sense of direction.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by madm View Post
    This study irks me because we paid for our kids' college, but they valued education so highly that they did not goof off and they graduated with good GPAs.
    But, as Prancer says, the study doesn't say that kids whose parents pay for their education goof off. It says their grades are not as good as students whose parents didn't pay by a statistically significant amount. Which is actually a pretty small amount in the greater scheme of things.

    It also says they graduate at higher rates. IMO it's better to graduate with a 3.5 than to get a 3.9 and not graduate. As a parent, I want my kid to get a degree first and the grades only have to be reasonable as, in the long run, it's the degree that matters, not the grades.

    I don't really understand being irked by a study. It's just data. It's not personal. Now, being irked by an article about a study I can understand. Being irked by this article, in particular, I can understand. But not data.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But, as Prancer says, the study doesn't say that kids whose parents pay for their education goof off. It says their grades are not as good as students whose parents didn't pay by a statistically significant amount. Which is actually a pretty small amount in the greater scheme of things.

    I don't really understand being irked by a study. It's just data. It's not personal. Now, being irked by an article about a study I can understand. Being irked by this article, in particular, I can understand. But not data.
    You are right, I am not irked by the data, only by the implication that wealth and full college support "causes" poorer grades. This study simply establishes a correlation between how much parents pay for college and academic performance. One cannot draw a cause-and-effect conclusion. It appears to me that setting expectations about student responsibilities is a more important influence on academic performance than parental financial support. As the researcher points out:
    "The negative impact of high levels of parental financial support was mitigated or eliminated by parents who set clear expectations for their children about grades, graduating on time or other issues, she said. This extends to all levels of parental support for students.
    The problem is that most parents who give a lot of money are apparently less than demanding about expectations."

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by madm View Post
    The problem is that most parents who give a lot of money are apparently less than demanding about expectations."
    That's the part I find the most interesting. Is it that giving support is part of being an indulgent parent in general? Because I am sure there are indulgent parents out there who would love to pay for their kids' college but just can't. So why wouldn't they get worse grades too and so in the end there would be no statistically significant effect?

  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by madm View Post
    You are right, I am not irked by the data, only by the implication that wealth and full college support "causes" poorer grades. This study simply establishes a correlation between how much parents pay for college and academic performance. One cannot draw a cause-and-effect conclusion. It appears to me that setting expectations about student responsibilities is a more important influence on academic performance than parental financial support. As the researcher points out:
    "The negative impact of high levels of parental financial support was mitigated or eliminated by parents who set clear expectations for their children about grades, graduating on time or other issues, she said. This extends to all levels of parental support for students.
    The problem is that most parents who give a lot of money are apparently less than demanding about expectations."
    The example you gave about your children also highlights why the conclusions are skewed. Because your children -- whose college was paid for -- received merit scholarships, they are lumped together with students may not get academic scholarships but whose parents pay less. Your kids probably got good grades in college, but that would not be reflected in the statistics for the group whose parents provided the most parental support. Maybe the author controlled for merit scholarships, but that seems like an obvious factor that would skew the data so that students with higher grades would tend to fall into groupings that receive lower parental support.

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    I tried harder when it was my own money. I think that was in part because I was more serious about study, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrellH View Post
    I tried harder when it was my own money. I think that was in part because I was more serious about study, then.
    We could say the same thing about anything that you have to pay for yourself. My kids took much better care of cars and drove more conservatively when they had to pay for the car, gas, insurance, and speeding tickets themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madm View Post
    We could say the same thing about anything that you have to pay for yourself. My kids took much better care of cars and drove more conservatively when they had to pay for the car, gas, insurance, and speeding tickets themselves.
    Very true, but I had roommates that were gone within one or two semesters. They came to party, and usually flunked out.

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