Isabella Tobias denied Lithuanian citizenship ...

[leafygreens]

Ok, debating on which skater is artistic, sporty, or deserving enough is ridiculous, when it comes to their immigration status. Do you think the immigration committees actually sit around debating whether or not a skater deserved a medal?

Regarding all the details about Kaitlyn, Tanith's immigration vs. other skaters... Yes, countries all have different rules and Isabella knew this. But that doesn't mean that Kaitlyn is any more "deserving" of citizenship or the chance to compete just because she chose a country with easier rules. Kaitlyn also "jumped the line."

There's no need for bringing whatever money Isabella's family has into this, or how "pushy" her parents supposedly are. Even if it's true, she would not be the first or last skater with a pushy parent - so what? And if anyone thinks the top two teams in the world right now do not come from family money, they are dreaming. Does that make them less deserving? Did they themselves not put in the work to get where they are?

I still think it's a good idea to give a mixed team the chance to compete at Olympics. If they can make a minimum qualifying score then why not?

My last question is why they both didn't move out of Lithuania and into AZE or some "easier" country, long ago?

[ioana]

I still think it's a good idea to give a mixed team the chance to compete at Olympics. If they can make a minimum qualifying score then why not?

What would you in terms of medals, if it comes to that? Would each country win 0.5? You couldn't really have each country winning a full medal since that would be unfair to same-country pairings...For better or worse, Olympic participation is tied into having your country's citizenship figured out. At least, based on the way things stand right now. Maybe the IOC would start looking into allowing mixed teams in the future, who knows?

[kwanfan1818]

Regarding all the details about Kaitlyn, Tanith's immigration vs. other skaters... Yes, countries all have different rules and Isabella knew this. But that doesn't mean that Kaitlyn is any more "deserving" of citizenship or the chance to compete just because she chose a country with easier rules. Kaitlyn also "jumped the line."

Since the countries in question get to decide who is deserving based on their own goals and values, and they decide whether to use national resources for the exception processes, I don't think they care whether you or I or anyone else considers the recipients or those denied as "deserving."

My last question is why they both didn't move out of Lithuania and into AZE or some "easier" country, long ago?

According to the article discussed above, Stagniunas didn't want to give up Lithuanian citizenship. Dual citizenship in Lithuania is allowed under limited circumstances, and skating for another country isn't one of them. In 2010 Lithuania killed a measure to allow dual citizenship on a broad basis.

[overedge]

It takes two to tango , no? lol.. I can drag a sack of potatoes around with me on the ice and the judges would probably score me a zero, but I am sure the judges would be much more interested if the sack of potatoes I was dragging around was actually a sack of gold..

No, it has to be a *good-looking* sack of gold

[GarrAarghHrumph]

No, it has to be a *good-looking* sack of gold

Or at least a well dressed one. Oh, wait. This is ice dance. Strike that.

[TheIronLady]

It's got nothing to do with the EU. It's totally up to the individual member states how they draft and apply their own citizenship laws.

I think the EU does look down on anything that resembles corruption or a member state bending laws for corrupt purposes. With the Baltic states being on the EU's "border," so to speak, it may want to keep its house looking clean.

Funny thing is it was recently suggested that USA start combating its government's fiscal problems by allowing wealthy moguls to buy accelerated citizenship when they invest millions (or some high amount) in American public/urban projects like stadiums, convention centers, etc. There is also talk of just selling citizenship or residency to the highest bidders at auction.

http://www.slate.com/articles/busine..._problem_.html

[maatTheViking]

Umm.... Allowing citizenship based on merit is not corrupt... That makes no sense.
Most countries in the EU allow dual citizenship, andrh rules are very different (Great Britain has a unique set of rules for common wealth nations, afaik, for instance).

No one has suggested she would buy her citizenship??? That is ludicrous.

[kwanfan1818]

Buying permanent residency isn't ludicrous: for example, there are two types of economic classes in Canada, the Entrepreneur Class, where a person invests a minimum amount in a business and needs to employ a minimum number of people in a set time frame, and Investor Class, where a much bigger sum is invested in a government approved fund. (The money is paid directly to the government.). There are limits -- the person has to show that they earned the money in the first place, and that they have the skills, not just a parent writing a big check for their kid -- but it's still using moeny to obtain rsidency. Once granted, the standard citizenship rules apply, unless an exception is granted.

Canada isn't the only country with this kind of scheme, and it's not considered corrupt, at least by years of elected governments.

[TheIronLady]

Based on what posters in this thread have said, it sounds like it could have the appearance of favoritism. Other posters suggested she was not going to live there or meet other expectations for merit-based citizenship. Anyway, I for one regret they could not make the exception based on their Europeans and Worlds placements.

[maatTheViking]

Buying permanent residency isn't ludicrous: for example, there are two types of economic classes in Canada, the Entrepreneur Class, where a person invests a minimum amount in a business and needs to employ a minimum number of people in a set time frame, and Investor Class, where a much bigger sum is invested in a government approved fund. (The money is paid directly to the government.). There are limits -- the person has to show that they earned the money in the first place, and that they have the skills, not just a parent writing a big check for their kid -- but it's still using moeny to obtain rsidency. Once granted, the standard citizenship rules apply, unless an exception is granted.

Canada isn't the only country with this kind of scheme, and it's not considered corrupt, at least by years of elected governments.

what I meant was - to say that it is some kind of corrupt scheme (that the EU cares about) that Tobias has engaged in is plain silly, as was insinuated in the post above mine.

just as it is silly to call entrepreneur citizenship rules for corruption - afaik it exists for the US too (and you have to invest 500k$ I think), as you mention.

[2sk8]

It does exist for the US too -

[kwanfan1818]

As you pointed out, EU countries make their own citizenship rules. If an EU country had an economic class for PR/citizenship, then the EU would have no influence on that country's law or processes. Also, laws that allow exceptions for potential or service are deliberately vague and government officials and/or legislatures interpret them on a case-by-case basis, and that service could be economically based. As far as being a border country, former Eastern European countries have done well on their own in impeding citizenship for ethnic Russians within their borders; preventing dual Russian/[country] citizenship has been one of the, if not the main, drivers, for laws against dual citizenship there.

There's so much talk about how much money Tobias's family has -- in an interview translated here, her former short-term partner Ilya Tkachenko described how her father had helicoptered them to practice to avoid traffic -- and how she bought a partner, that it's only one step away from thinking that her family could have contributed a well-needed facility or by starting a business in her new country, no matter how specious. However, depending on how the laws of a country are written, even were it true, this could be neither corrupt nor rule-bending.

The same thing is true of merit and how merit is defined. The Estonian government thought that Mallory should be given not only Estonian citizenship, but a special citizenship that would expire in a set number of years. (Estonia does not allow dual citizenship, either, and this would have allowed her to regain US citizenship -- if they even bothered to see if she went through the formal renunciation process -- after two Olympic cycles.). Mallory/Rand's results weren't any better than Tobias/Stagniunas's, but the sovereign Lithuanian government has a different gauge for accomplishment and service than the Estonian government did at the time the decisions were made, just as they could have taken economic factors into consideration, unless prohibited by their own law.

While there are valid arguments on the relative value of how residency/citizenship is attained, and to whom it should go, unless it is done purely by lottery, there is built-in favoritism, because, by definition, there are criteria and there is a hierarchy, in both acceptance and processing time. Corruption only comes into play when someone is given precedence or exception outside the standard processes.

[Ziggy]

I still think it's a good idea to give a mixed team the chance to compete at Olympics. If they can make a minimum qualifying score then why not?

Because representing your country is what the whole idea of Olympics revolves around.

I think the EU does look down on anything that resembles corruption or a member state bending laws for corrupt purposes. With the Baltic states being on the EU's "border," so to speak, it may want to keep its house looking clean.

Again, EU does not interfere at all with how individual members states draft and apply their own citizenship laws. Keeping the Schengen border safe is one thing, granting citizenship through "special merit" is another. There are countries in the EU where it's comparably easy to obtain citizenship this way. Lithuania is definitely not one of them. Never was and probably never will be.

Based on what posters in this thread have said, it sounds like it could have the appearance of favoritism.

Yes and that's how the world works. If you have a lot of money, you can live whenever the hell you please and pay hardly any taxes on top of that.

[NadineWhite]

Because representing your country is what the whole idea of Olympics revolves around.

Yes and that's how the world works. If you have a lot of money, you can live whenever the hell you please and pay hardly any taxes on top of that.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

This reminds me of actor Gerard Depardieu being granted Russian citizenship personally by Vladimir Putin.

[kwanfan1818]

Tobias/Stagniunas have posted a link to a short article to their Facebook Page:

http://www.delfi.lt/news/daily/lithu....d?id=60421955

I'm not sure if I understand the bing translation properly, but I think it says the Lithuanian president has asked or is about the ask the Lithuanian Constitutional Court to clarify some prior rulings on citizenship and to see if there needs to be a new law or constitutional change to clarify the exception standards.

[apatinar]

so basically, to sum up most of what has been said in this thread, Ice Dancing is really just a way for rich people who don't have much talent to buy their way into the Olympics...... fantastic...

[kwanfan1818]

Yeah, we're saying that everyone who isn't competitive for a World or Olympic title is a rich person who bought their way into competition.

[apatinar]

according to this thread - the same thing applies to even world champions i.e. Maurizio Margalio... and that Russian dude who won bronze.. ( Sorry, I don't follow ice dancing and can't remember his name and don't have the interest to go back through this thread to find it..)

[kwanfan1818]

Because Margaglio and Shabalin are soooooo rich.

[Eislauffan]

More bad news for I. Tobias/D. Stagniunas as they had to withdraw from Europeans. Apparently he suffered a reocurring back injury. :-(