Isabella Tobias denied Lithuanian citizenship ...

[Zemgirl]

It's more likely on her father's side of the family, but I'm not sure whether that would be counted, especially by the Eli Yishai's of the world.

Actually, for the purpose of the Law of Return you don't need to be Jewish according to religious standards (through the mother), only to have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations. Which Reed probably doesn't anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe she could convert

[kwanfan1818]

You'd be surprised at how many people with names like "Reed" have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations, even if they went about trying to hid "that part of the family." I don't know if it's true in Alison Reed's case, but you can't always tell by a name.

Actually, for the purpose of the Law of Return you don't need to be Jewish according to religious standards (through the mother), only to have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations. Which Reed probably doesn't anyway, so it's a moot point. Maybe she could convert

Is the reason that so many Russian Israelis have a hard time with the Law of Return because they managed to expunge "Jewish" from their passports far enough down the line?

[Zemgirl]

You'd be surprised at how many people with names like "Reed" have Jewish ancestry within a couple of generations, even if they went about trying to hid "that part of the family." I don't know if it's true in Alison Reed's case, but you can't always tell by a name.

Is the reason that so many Russian Israelis have a hard time with the Law of Return because they managed to expunge "Jewish" from their passports far enough down the line?

Oh, I am well aware of that. It's just that to the best of my knowledge, the Reeds are not Jewish by any definition.

As for the second part, I'm not sure what you mean. There are a lot of Israelis who came here from the Former Soviet Union and who are not actually Jewish. If someone can't prove that they have the relevant ancestry then they'd have difficulty making aliyah to begin with. If you're trying to prove yourself Jewish for religious purposes (e.g. marriage - we don't have civil weddings), then it's more difficult and restrictive.

It's kind of OT for this thread, though (my fault), unless Tobias is planning to represent Israel?

[apatinar]

This.

Whilst technically Tobias might be far from the best ice dancer, she is one of the best performers and always gives it 110% in competitions.





She's probably paying his expenses.

I thought that these were ice dancing competitions.Not performance art... If she is far from the best ice dancer, how did she win a bronze medal at Skate America?

[Zemgirl]

I thought that these were ice dancing competitions.Not performance art... If she is far from the best ice dancer, how did she win a bronze medal at Skate America?

Because the others were even farther from the best? Winning a bronze medal ≠ being the best and doesn't necessarily mean being close to it, either.

And you are aware that skaters are marked, among other things, for performance and execution, right?

[apatinar]

Because the others were even farther from the best? Winning a bronze medal ≠ being the best and doesn't necessarily mean being close to it, either.

And you are aware that skaters are marked, among other things, for performance and execution, right?

Yes, but at the end of the day, if this is an ice dancing competition, then the judges should actually be looking at what is going on with her feet on the ice?
Maybe I'm a bit obsessed with this because I am from NYC and saw what a sham all of this is, but if this is the way it normally is done with ice dancing across the board (i.e. marginal talent / enough bucks to buy a great partner & obviously judges from the Skate America medal) then this is another reason why I stopped watching dance a long time ago... If the judges are going to give more weight to an eye movement or a flick of the wrist ( performance quality) rather than edge quality , then I don't even see the need for the competition to be taking place ON the ice..

[kwanfan1818]

Maurizio Margaglio wasn't the best ice dancer, and he is a World Champion and Olympic medalist. Roman Kostomarov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's a World and Olympic champion. Ruslan Goncharov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's an Olympic bronze medalist.

They happened to have top-notch partners.

[apatinar]

Maurizio Margaglio wasn't the best ice dancer, and he is a World Champion and Olympic medalist. Roman Kostomarov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's a World and Olympic champion. Ruslan Goncharov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's an Olympic bronze medalist.

They happened to have top-notch partners.

It takes two to tango , no? lol.. I can drag a sack of potatoes around with me on the ice and the judges would probably score me a zero, but I am sure the judges would be much more interested if the sack of potatoes I was dragging around was actually a sack of gold..
The mystery of dance just keeps getting more and more mysterious for me..

[kwanfan1818]

If the only thing that matters in figure skating is blade to ice, Chan, Kozuka, and Abbott would never be off the podium. There are other elements and criteria to figure skating and ice dancing than blade to ice. If T/S won bronze at Skate America, it means that two teams in the field were better than they, and the rest were worse. You're always welcome to argue why any of the teams below them wuzrobbed.

[Finnice]

Whilst technically Tobias might be far from the best ice dancer, she is one of the best performers and always gives it 110% in competitions.

Am I dreaming? Ziggy is saying positive things about Tobias?
And that is true, too, she does not hold back when performing. I feel sorry for them not be be able to compete in the Olympics.

[Zemgirl]

Am I dreaming? Ziggy is saying positive things about Tobias?
And that is true, too, she does not hold back when performing. I feel sorry for them not be be able to compete in the Olympics.

You know someone has gone too far when FSUers are jumping in to defend Tobias

[apatinar]

If the only thing that matters in figure skating is blade to ice, Chan, Kozuka, and Abbott would never be off the podium. .

Chan can slip-slide around the ice on his rear end for half the program and still remain on the podium because of his skating skills. Kozuka is inconsistent and Abbott is a headcase but they still remain close to the podium because of their skating skills... The difference between singles skaters like these 3 and what has been mentioned about ice dancing by other posters in this thread is that if Chan, Kozuka and Abbott couldn't do the triples and quads, they would not even be invited to world level competition.. They would be the beautiful edge skaters who couldn't jump well and skating on cruise ships...Unlike Margalio, Kostamorov, Goncharov, and Tobias etc. who ALL have been mentioned that they are not the best ice dancers but somehow find their way to the medals... What other sport can an man or woman say that they are an Olympic & World Champion, but oh - they are not really the best at what they do.... They were basically carried around by a rich girl with enough money and skating skills to make it to the top... Or in Tobias' case - A rich girl with sub par skating skills (but oh can she bat her eyelashes and turn on the charm for the judges!!!) buying various partners from relatively obscure Eastern European countries with excellent skating skills.. It doesn't make sense and it should be an embarrassment to even mention it... The fact that this girl is mentioned in any sentence with world level competition to me is absolutely insane with the thousands of more qualified girls who are on cruise ships because they didn't pick an ice dancing partner from Tajikistan...

[TheIronLady]

Ruslan Goncharov wasn't the best ice dancer, and he's an Olympic bronze medalist...

I still can't get over that one... and them winning it with her wearing pasties.

[Vagabond]

I dont understand this at all.
Tobias is not as good as ice dancer as Stagniūnass?
Why on earth is he skating with her? It is well known that top MALE ice dancers are rare and girls have to "fight" for the fitting partner.
After the fiasco with his former partner (same situation with citizenship btw) Stagniūnass was on the hunt for new partner and if I remember correctly he tested with Jana Khokhlova. People were stunned that she choose Fedor Andreev - skater with no ice dance experience over a solid Stagniūnass.
Maybe Stagniūnass is not THAT much better than Tobias. I see great elegance in her moves and presence. Their Rachmaninov free dance gives me chills. That hasn't happened in a while.

I believe there are several issues here.

First, Stagniūnas apparently doesn't want to change citizenship (at least, that's what it says in that Lithuanian-language interview with Isabella Tobias to which Sylvia linked).

Second, Lithuanian citizenship is not easy to obtain unless you live in the country.

Third, as stated in that Lithuanian-language interview, Lithuania doesn't have any coaches who could handle a top-level ice dance couple.

Fourth, any woman who would come close to Stagniūnas's level of ability would want to compete in the Olympics. But, the first three considerations effectively make that impossible, since, unless Stagniūnas changed his mind, they would have to skate for Lithuania.

Since the top-level female ice dancers don't want to forfeit their chance at the Olympics, Stagniūnas has to make do with what is available.

Sorry state. The "judging" community obviously does not need to meet anywhere near to this kind of international/citizenship scrutiny, as an unspoken percentage of judges who "represent" countries other than "Russia" can sit in front of judging computers to choose our Olympic and World champions. But athletes seem to have to meet a higher bar to represent. The lines are blurred and grey.

You don't have to have citizenship in order to represent a country at ISU competitions, but you do in order to skate at the Olympics. That's because the IOC has different rules from the ISU.

I don't know for certain, but I would expect that the same is true for judges. Can you name any particular skating judges who represented a country at the Olympics without actually being a citizen of that country?

[kirkbiggestfan]

I may be wrong but Stagniunas was considered when Jana Khokhlova was looking for a partner and she ended up choosing Andreev!!!!
We could have had a Khokhlova-Stagniunas for Russia and Tobias-Andreev partnership instead. But Jana made the irrational decision to fall in love with the non-ice dancer!

[Cherub721]

Do we know for sure it was Jana and not Devidas who nixed the partnership? Surely he would have taken on Russian citizenship to compete with a partner of that caliber?

[TAHbKA]

Chan can slip-slide around the ice on his rear end for half the program and still remain on the podium because of his skating skills. Kozuka is inconsistent and Abbott is a headcase but they still remain close to the podium because of their skating skills... The difference between singles skaters like these 3 and what has been mentioned about ice dancing by other posters in this thread is that if Chan, Kozuka and Abbott couldn't do the triples and quads, they would not even be invited to world level competition.. They would be the beautiful edge skaters who couldn't jump well and skating on cruise ships...Unlike Margalio, Kostamorov, Goncharov, and Tobias etc. who ALL have been mentioned that they are not the best ice dancers but somehow find their way to the medals... What other sport can an man or woman say that they are an Olympic & World Champion, but oh - they are not really the best at what they do.... They were basically carried around by a rich girl with enough money and skating skills to make it to the top... Or in Tobias' case - A rich girl with sub par skating skills (but oh can she bat her eyelashes and turn on the charm for the judges!!!) buying various partners from relatively obscure Eastern European countries with excellent skating skills.. It doesn't make sense and it should be an embarrassment to even mention it... The fact that this girl is mentioned in any sentence with world level competition to me is absolutely insane with the thousands of more qualified girls who are on cruise ships because they didn't pick an ice dancing partner from Tajikistan...

Allright, allright, Tobias peed in your cereals. Now that we got that clear can we please move on? Thanks.

[Ziggy]

Why are people making the assumption that it's Khoklova and not Stagniunas who decided the partnership wouldn't work? Or not both?

It's not like Khoklova is technically a much better skater than him, if at all. Her main (and only tbh ) ability was contorting herself in all possible directions and going full OTT.

Now Tobias I assume is of Lithuanian ancestry.

I don't think she is, no.

As an EU member in that part of Europe, it may have little choice.

It's got nothing to do with the EU. It's totally up to the individual member states how they draft and apply their own citizenship laws.

Sorry state. The "judging" community obviously does not need to meet anywhere near to this kind of international/citizenship scrutiny, as an unspoken percentage of judges who "represent" countries other than "Russia" can sit in front of judging computers to choose our Olympic and World champions. But athletes seem to have to meet a higher bar to represent. The lines are blurred and grey.

The IOC regulates Olympic eligibility for athletes, ISU regulates the figure skating judging. One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

I thought that these were ice dancing competitions.Not performance art...

Performance ability, body line, expression, timing and so on and so forth are all part of the PCS criteria.

If she is far from the best ice dancer, how did she win a bronze medal at Skate America?

Because there's more factors to consider than the technical ability of one partner. And it's not like they were up against a strong field at that event.

Yes, but at the end of the day, if this is an ice dancing competition, then the judges should actually be looking at what is going on with her feet on the ice?

They should be looking at everything that is specified in the judging criteria.

And more often than not, Tobias/Stagniunas are actually able to do ok on the levels so she is doing something right.

Maybe I'm a bit obsessed with this because I am from NYC and saw what a sham all of this is, but if this is the way it normally is done with ice dancing across the board (i.e. marginal talent / enough bucks to buy a great partner & obviously judges from the Skate America medal) then this is another reason why I stopped watching dance a long time ago...

I really do not get your obsession over this. That's how the world works. Money can buy you nearly everything and obviously your chances of achieving success are infinitely greater if you have adequate resources to invest. Not just in figure skating but in everything else in life as well. Unless you're extremely naive and/or living under a rock, I don't get how this would be surprising or shocking. This is simply the way things are. Tough shit.

If the judges are going to give more weight to an eye movement or a flick of the wrist ( performance quality) rather than edge quality , then I don't even see the need for the competition to be taking place ON the ice..

The judges should be giving weight to both.

I mean we could of course scrap the short and free programs and just hold compulsory figures events. I am sure those would be a massive hit with the audiences and ensure a long-term health of the sport.

Am I dreaming? Ziggy is saying positive things about Tobias?

I wish Stagniunas had a partner who was stronger technically but you can't deny that Tobias is an incredible performer. Always bringing the voids, always fabulously OTT and always giving it everything she's got. She deserves some respect.

[kwanfan1818]

The difference between singles skaters like these 3 and what has been mentioned about ice dancing by other posters in this thread is that if Chan, Kozuka and Abbott couldn't do the triples and quads, they would not even be invited to world level competition.. They would be the beautiful edge skaters who couldn't jump well and skating on cruise ships...Unlike Margalio, Kostamorov, Goncharov, and Tobias etc. who ALL have been mentioned that they are not the best ice dancers but somehow find their way to the medals... .

If Tobias couldn't do the lifts, spins, twizzles, key points in the SD, etc., T/S wouldn't have repeatedly achieved the very high TES minimums needed to compete at Worlds.

[ioana]

I agree Tobias isn't the strongest partner for Stegiunas, but in her defense she's worked hard and improved since they first came onto the scene. I still don't think she gets as much glide from her pushes as some of the other elite dancers, but she is a good performer and hits nice positions in lifts and spins. Not sure where all this hate is coming from, but I hope they decide to stay together and do well, regardless of Sochi.