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  1. #21

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    hmmm... i think we should make skaters skate to the Joey Potter version of On My Own...

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    IMO a 'free' program should be 'free'.
    I agree with you. Unfortunately, there is nothing "free" about the free program anymore. Doesn't it have more rules and restrictions than the short program?
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  3. #23

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    Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I agree with you. Unfortunately, there is nothing "free" about the free program anymore. Doesn't it have more rules and restrictions than the short program?
    Yeah, I don't know why it's not called the long program? The short program can be more free, even at lower levels of competition.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatieC View Post
    Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.
    I guess it is not allowed because then skaters who popped a jump would attempt it again later, claiming that the pop was a "choreographic single." This could be alleviated by making the jump count as a pass unless the skater has pre-designated it as choreography ("I'm going to do a single axel at 3:19 in the program after my layback spin"). I feel like there's lots of little fixes the ISU could do to give the skaters more freedom.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatieC View Post
    Personally, I wish they'd allow a single jump in competition. A beautiful delayed single axle that didn't wipe out one of your "allowed" jumping passes.
    It is allowed if you do it after you 7 jumping passes. You will receive 0, then, lol.

  7. #27

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    Skaters are certainly allowed to do single jumps, but if they are listed jumps (from any of the six basic takeoffs), they will count as jump passes -- walleys and inside axels don't count.

    One way to avoid losing points under the current rules would be to plan a special single jump at the end of the program, after the last jump pass that does count. I.e., as an 8th jump pass for a lady or 9th for a man.

    For some skaters, it might be worthwhile to plan a single jump earlier in the program and "waste" a jump pass on a single. E.g., a man who does two triple-triples but no quads can likely fit all his multi-revolution jumps into 6 jump passes. Then he could do 2A+2A sequence for one of the additional passes and a special single jump as another pass. If the special single takes more energy than the 2A+2A or a solo 3S and/or it fits the music and choreography better at an earlier point in the program, it would still be worth doing because he has an extra jump pass available anyway.

    If we allow women several extra seconds of program time and an extra element that could be used for a jump pass, then fitting all the triples and double axel into 7 passes and an easier jump into the 8th pass (which wouldn't have to be the last one).

    Even with 7 jumping passes, the best female jumpers who can do two triple-triples (or one 3-3 and 2A+3T) can end up with a spare jumping pass as above. The weaker senior jumpers and many juniors who can only do two different triples and double axel need a maximum of 6 passes for their difficult jumps -- most likely they would fill the extra one with double lutz or flip or loop, but an enhanced single axel would also be an option.

    I would like the value of the +GOEs large enough so that +3 on a single jump would be worth more than 0 or +1 on a double jump. That would be incentive to work on special +3-worthy singles in place of filler doubles. And similarly make enhanced double jumps more valuable than borderline triples.


    Another option, but not one I especially recommend or expect the ISU to accept, would be to change the rules to allow one additional jump pass in the maximum, but drop the scores for whichever pass scored lowest. So if a skater does 9 jumps, of which one is a pop or a downgraded easy triple with a fall and one is a good delayed axel, then the scores for the axel would count. On a different day when the skater succeeds at landing that other attempted triple, then the score for the single axel would be the one dropped, but it would still be there to enhance the PCS.

  8. #28

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    Reading these thoughtful suggestions by gkelly, cherub721, and KatieC makes me sad. There is so much crammed into the program that I doubt a single jump would be appealing to the skaters themselves. It's unfortunate because these are good choreographic options that would enhance skaters with a talent for pure jumping.

  9. #29
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    IMO the ladiezzz programs are all slow enough, thanks.
    That's kind of what I was thinking. I do agree with the premise of this thread, though, that programs need some breathing space to break up all the clutter, for the benefit of the skater and the audience. If there was a new rule, I'd word it in terms of requiring the well-balanced program to have a distinct change in tempo in the music and choreography, demonstrating the skater's skill at both kinds of movement. (I don't mean to limit them to one change in tempo, but to require at least one.)

    Personally, I prefered the fast-slow-fast programs to the ones we've seen more recently, but slow-fast-slow should be Ok too. (Although, IIRC, judges historically did not like slow-fast-slow, as it looks too much like a cover for bad conditioning.)
    Last edited by Susan M; 01-09-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  10. #30

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    I don't see the point of a new rule. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing a slow section if they want or need it.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    That's kind of what I was thinking. I do agree with the premise of this thread, though, that programs need some breathing space to break up all the clutter, for the benefit of the skater and the audience. If there was a new rule, I'd word it in terms of requiring the well-balanced program to have a distinct change in tempo in the music and choreography, demonstrating the skater's skill at both kinds of movement. (I don't mean to limit them to one change in tempo, but to require at least one.)

    Personally, I prefered the fast-slow-fast programs to the ones we've seen more recently, but slow-fast-slow should be Ok too. (Although, IIRC, judges historically did not like slow-fast-slow, as it looks too much like a cover for bad conditioning.)
    I like the pacing of Kwan's Song of the Black Swan. Started off slow, then went fast, then went slow again to a fast ending. I know it's just one more section, but it just seemed different.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    There is nothing stopping anyone from doing a slow section if they want or need it.
    What prevents skaters from doing it now is that the gliding moves that go in a slow section would take up valuable time that would otherwise be spent on the excessive flailing that currently earns them points (longer fw sequences, transition points, etc). The point of a rule would be to make all the skaters demonstrate the ability to do these kinds of moves and to avoid the de facto penalty for including them.

    It would also, IMO, give more choreographic variety and interest to the programs.

  13. #33

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    Ladies are now supposed to do a Choreographed Sequence, which needs to include at least one spiral.

    So they have to do a section somewhere in the program. I.e., there already is a rule to make all ladies demonstrate the ability to do at least one extended gliding move.

    Unfortunately the current rules require it to take place after the step sequence, so they can't start the program that way. But they can put it in the middle if they want to regroup aerobically and/or delay more jumps into the second-half bonus period. They just have to do the step sequence first.

    Ending with a spiral/field moves sequence or other slow gliding section was a valid choice under 6.0 and still is in IJS, which is where a lot of skaters are choosing to put that section.

    Why shouldn't men be "required" to demonstrate gliding moves as well? They were required to do a Field Moves sequence in the early 2000s. If ability to do these kinds of moves is something all skaters should demonstrate, shouldn't that mean all skaters?

    REQUIRING a slow section in the middle of the program would give less variety between programs. ALLOWING and REWARDING a slow section in any part of the program would give more variety.

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