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  1. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I am surprised by the fact you are as judge don't think it is important to take in composition intention, meaning, context and consider them 'at all' matters towards any interpretations/translation of the music, shows an alarming lack of music appreciation and 'entitled' ignorance. So how can anyone who is able to give the performer interpretation a high quality of judging if all the judge cares about is only in form but not in essence or meaning?
    I've been following this thread with interest and that is not what Aussie Willy has been saying at all. While I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom, I think you don't want to accept that she's not (yet) 100% drooling over Yuna's program.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I've been following this thread with interest and that is not what Aussie Willy has been saying at all. While I appreciate your enthusiasm and fandom, I think you don't want to accept that she's not (yet) 100% drooling over Yuna's program.
    That's a vast understatement. Read through the posts. She's out for anti-propaganda.

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    I'd also like to add that, as a professional performing classical musician myself for many years (as well as a former competitive skater), it is rare for any skater to give a compelling "character" interpretation in a program. Yes, I believe it is important for a skater to know any story/character/meaning behind a given piece of music. It is then up to the skater to decide what to do with that knowledge, which does not necessarily have to be an "acting out" of anything in order to be compelling.

    Ladies' exceptions, IMO: I do think Katarina Witt understood and was interpreting Carmen in '88. Janet Lynn's interpretation of Debussy's "Afternoon of a Faun" is legendary. There are probably others, but I can't think of any at the moment.

    Michelle Kwan is considered a supreme artist by many fans, but she certainly never acted out the characters of Tosca or Salome. Yet they were sensational programs. Yes, she wore an appropriate enough (skating) costume for Salome, but I'll never be convinced that she was acting out the role of a sex-starved maniac obsessed with seducing John the Baptist. The music itself is powerful and she skated and reacted through the music, not the true personality and mental instability of the character. And it worked.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    That's a vast understatement. Read through the posts. She's out for anti-propaganda.
    Are you saying this for real?

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    This doesn't make sense. Chan has been on the senior circuit for as many or more seasons as Yuna and has two world silver medals as well as two world silver titles. And he has raised the bar of the men's field, which Yuna did not do in a significant way. Although this is really not be Yuna's responsibility - the ladies field seems to continually take one step forward and then two steps back - but if she had competed these past two seasons, there might have been more impetus for the ladies to include more difficult technical content.

    Also, as I understand it, Yunah's motivation for returning is to gain Korea two spots for the Olympics? Or, that is a key motivation? That being the case, will she be motivated to push the envelope artistically or can she do so? This is not to criticize her in anyway, so please don't jump down my throat if you're an uber. The last Olympics belonged to her and she couldn't have been more perfect. It seemed she peaked at the right time, and afterwards she was spent. I don't know if it would be fair to expect her to be on the same or a higher level in the next Olympics.

    Patrick, by contrast, seeks redemption from the last Olympics, and is still continuing to grow as a skater.
    Chan was almost nobody prior to Vancouver. He became an important figure only in the last 2-3 years. On the other hand, YuNa was a storm right after her senior debut. She set up new standard for ladies field both technically and artistically. She popularized 3-3, 2-3 as a winning formula. She left most memorable programs in the last Olympic cycle. She brought the Korean skating to the world stage. Those are her contributions to skating.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    Are you saying this for real?
    Sorry if I offended you. But I meant it. I have some doubt if she's from down under and non-Asian as her nickname suggests. Hope I'm wrong, but the pattern and repetition seem so typical.

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    Ice Alisa , Yu-na studied ballet with Evelyn Hart (how extensively I don't know), who was a prima ballerina with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Sorry if I offended you. But I meant it. I have some doubt if she's from down under and non-Asian as her nickname suggests. Hope I'm wrong, but the pattern and repetition seem so typical.
    Sorry Aussie Willy, you've been found out. The anti-Yuna propaganda plot has been unveiled

    (yeah! finally I have a reason to use the drama icon - always wanted too )

    Beware fellow forumers, there are double agents among us

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    Concerning the emotional distance quite a few posters said they felt about Yuna's new programs ------------and about Michelle Kwan being such a supreme reference in the matter of emotion in figure skating:
    I just want to add my two cents by saying how figure skating is a TV-mediated sport where our experience/ appreciation is more than incidentally depends on camerawork, I invite people here to imagine Kwan's skating without those closeups of her often emotional facial expressions which otherwise are invisible to viewers present at the rink. Just imagine her skating without those long victorious spiral sequences during which the TV screen is filled up with the closeup shots of Kwan's face with a radiant smile and wet eyes (the spiral sq, besides, is now gone), etc, etc. In conclusion, what I want to say is that much of the power that fans attribute to Kwan's skating owes to the particular, established way of filming figure skating (for instance, giving the impression of intimacy with a skater through closeups during the spiral sq and dramatic ending pose, etc.). In other words, please factor in the particular type of camerawork we got from KBS or SBS in your assessment of the emotional quotient of Yuna's skating, and of course, also the effect of the absence of a long spiral sequence, which is a bit like a 'kiss and cry zone' within a program.
    Valid point.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    Ice Alisa , Yu-na studied ballet with Evelyn Hart (how extensively I don't know), who was a prima ballerina with the Royal Winnipeg Ballet.
    AFAIK, Evelyn Hart was one of many great staffs in Cricket club, among them is a modern hip-hop dance teacher who choreographed Yuna's Bulletproof ex. So my guess is that if Yuna learned some ballet, she did so while she was in Cricket Club.

  11. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    Sorry Aussie Willy, you've been found out. The anti-Yuna propaganda plot has been unveiled

    (yeah! finally I have a reason to use the drama icon - always wanted too )

    Beware fellow forumers, there are double agents among us
    Maybe that's me

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by l'etoile View Post
    AFAIK, Evelyn Hart was one of many great staffs in Cricket club, among them is a modern hip-hop dance teacher who choreographed Yuna's Bulletproof ex. So my guess is that if Yuna learned some ballet, she did so while she was in Cricket Club.
    That's true. She also learned ballet (entry-level, I guess) when she was a child.

  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post


    I think I'll be joining you - do you have some popcorn left?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Can I join you? You people are much nicer to be around.
    All welcome. I am swimming in toffee popcorn here. It's necessary, as not only is Yu-Na back, but as Euros is coming up

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    Concerning the emotional distance quite a few posters said they felt about Yuna's new programs ------------and about Michelle Kwan being such a supreme reference in the matter of emotion in figure skating:
    I just want to add my two cents by saying how figure skating is a TV-mediated sport where our experience/ appreciation is more than incidentally depends on camerawork, I invite people here to imagine Kwan's skating without those closeups of her often emotional facial expressions which otherwise are invisible to viewers present at the rink. Just imagine her skating without those long victorious spiral sequences during which the TV screen is filled up with the closeup shots of Kwan's face with a radiant smile and wet eyes (the spiral sq, besides, is now gone), etc, etc. In conclusion, what I want to say is that much of the power that fans attribute to Kwan's skating owes to the particular, established way of filming figure skating (for instance, giving the impression of intimacy with a skater through closeups during the spiral sq and dramatic ending pose, etc.). In other words, please factor in the particular type of camerawork we got from KBS or SBS in your assessment of the emotional quotient of Yuna's skating, and of course, also the effect of the absence of a long spiral sequence, which is a bit like a 'kiss and cry zone' within a program.
    This is a good remark; I like when someone tries to rationalize what he has before the eyes, instead of throwing the first things that come to the mind ((:

    What actually bothers me is the existence of this “supreme emotional reference” that theguitarist mentions. For two reasons: one, which is obvious, is that having such reference as a meter for any other skating performance kills the individuality of all the skaters. and let’s not even mention when people try to sell this highly subjective meter as an universal belief. This way, judging figure skating becomes a farce.
    The second issue is the word “emotional”. I apologize if I go off topic again, but after all, I take pleasure in expressing my ideas…
    The term “emotion” is a very tricky monster, so to speak. Because it deals with something much much more complex than we can imagine. emotions have their roots in our personality, life experience, our subconscious and inconscious, etc. We think we can easily analyse them, and say “My emotions came from my appreciation of this performance and/or music”.

    Reality is different. A lot of things must be taken in account, and one of them is the context of the performance. In this case, its competitive environment: when we see an athlete nailing element after element, we are not just happy for the skater. We feel the excitement coming from our own competitive spirit (shall we call it, competitive greed?). Something that is naturally rooted in any human being - for biological reasons, I suppose. What we see in these skating competitions, what makes them so appealing, what make us fan of a skater, is the projection of our competitive nature. We unconsciously identify in this or that athlete and we want him to win because we want to feel the satisfaction of our “killer” instinct. Some people loved to go to the war, as absurd as it seems, for this very reason. In times of peace, the war instinct transfers in sports. So we study and discuss competitive strategies as we would do in a military attack. Let’s face it: we are much less pacifistic than we think ((:
    All this to say is that, taking the love for Michelle Kwan as an example: part of this love, of all this overwhelming emotions the fans feel in those moments, comes from the pleasure of seeing her win, beating everyone else once again, like a sparkling “war machine” we unconsciously love.

    Nationalism is an other unconscious element of it. Take the Olympics. Suddendly, the nationalities of the skaters count much more than before. They represent a country. It’s also a competition, or better saying a fight between nations. But a fight between nations is also called war. My theory is that the Olympics are considered so highly, as a stand-out competition, because they are a “mini-war”. And emotions run higher than before for the adrenaline of the war, of our killing instincts that burst out. All the media furore around the Games, that some people (rightly) can’t stand, is a minor reason of the excitement and the reverence that the word “Olympics” exude. Something much deeper, hard to admit, is at stake.

    Now that I’ve gone OT enough, I try to get back to the present discussion. It is true that the skaters who dare to go beyond the conventional manners set in the sport, sometimes are not recognized by the judges. Which leads to the fact that we see a lot of program/performance that goes along with the rules, and that’s it. I believe a lot of skaters would like to take that same “brave” route and doing something extraordinary, but in the end, they, or their coaches, or parents, chose to go with the easiest way. Which, of course, is not that “easy” as it seems. The bitter truth is that we’re not talking about “l’art pour l’art” here, but about a sport that requires money, time, sacrifice, etc. (and I say this without pity toward the skaters, because skating is their choice, no one is forcing them). Yes, it’s true that an “artistic” program can still be made and win according to the rules. But a great amount of creativity coming from choreographers and skaters is required. And you can’t do anything if there is not creativity, you can’t make it happen. And considering choreographers have to make a living, we can’t blame them too much for being faithful to the conventions.

    So in the end we must conclude that this unique, and in some way interesting conflict between art and competition has no solution, except in rare cases. Figure skating is not the place in wich search art, because the competitive side will always prevail for one reason or an other.
    I also think, actually, that the nature of art is not competitive. The competitive spirit comes out once again when we enjoy making comparisions between paintings, pieces of music, etc, to decide which one is the best. This seems to be a human obsession. (: But we never see a “painting competition” in TV, because we think that competition is not the true realm of art. There are music competition, like Euromusic, but they are very rare. so, if art is beyond competition, why do we expect to see art in figure skating? (: that’s a logical error, it seems.
    We want both sides of the thing, but it’s wanting too much and we end up obtaining little ((

  15. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewood View Post
    Chan was almost nobody prior to Vancouver.
    Oh, really? In your mind, maybe.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PUNKPRINCESS View Post
    What are you uncertain about? Emotional connection, in plain English, is in the domain of "Performance", and Performance is one part of the combined Performance/Execution category of the the Program Components scores. Execution, on the other hand, refers to the "quality of the movement and precision in delivery".
    If you are talking about the word emotion/emotional being in an ISU Communication or the rule book in the description for the category Performance/Execution, I was uncertain I knew a reference. If you had a particular reference to the rule book or an ISU Communication, like Aussie, you should have provided it, and it would have been appreciated. In fact, I probably would have personally communicated my appreciation, like I did with Aussie.

    If your point is that the content of ISU Communications and the ISU rule book in the PCS descriptions is in "plain English", meaning clear descriptions in English, I would say that the language in the PCS descriptions is a load of garbage in English words that mask the political nature of the category, and Performance and Execution have no business being combined. However, that is off topic.

    I was one of those that saw emotional connection in Yu Na's performance, and I have said it multiple times in this thread, including in disagreement with Aussie. However, Aussie and I, as members of this forum, have a mutually respectful appreciation for each other's opinions, so disagreements of this nature are not taken personally. In fact, I often learn by listening to others during points of disagreement.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 01-09-2013 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Typos. Using the web from a smart phone.

  17. #177

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    Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

    Quote Originally Posted by theguitarist View Post
    Concerning the emotional distance quite a few posters said they felt about Yuna's new programs ------------and about Michelle Kwan being such a supreme reference in the matter of emotion in figure skating:
    I just want to add my two cents by saying how figure skating is a TV-mediated sport where our experience/ appreciation is more than incidentally depends on camerawork, I invite people here to imagine Kwan's skating without those closeups of her often emotional facial expressions which otherwise are invisible to viewers present at the rink. Just imagine her skating without those long victorious spiral sequences during which the TV screen is filled up with the closeup shots of Kwan's face with a radiant smile and wet eyes (the spiral sq, besides, is now gone), etc, etc. In conclusion, what I want to say is that much of the power that fans attribute to Kwan's skating owes to the particular, established way of filming figure skating (for instance, giving the impression of intimacy with a skater through closeups during the spiral sq and dramatic ending pose, etc.). In other words, please factor in the particular type of camerawork we got from KBS or SBS in your assessment of the emotional quotient of Yuna's skating, and of course, also the effect of the absence of a long spiral sequence, which is a bit like a 'kiss and cry zone' within a program.
    I see your point but have you ever seen Kwan live? She always found a way to emote so that the people in the very last row felt it. The very best manage without the help of a camera. I also never loved Kwans spiral because of the face she made during it. That's just...odd.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  18. #178
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    Having freshly rewatched the one skating performance that made me which I saw live (Shen/Zhao Nutcracker FS at GPF posted on another thread), I certainly agree that close-ups of the face are not key. I never saw their faces in close-up. But they created such an energy, two people skating as one unit, with such unparalleled understanding of each musical nuance that I never needed to. I think this is my #1 favorite performance of all time. *sniff*
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigB08822 View Post
    I see your point but have you ever seen Kwan live? She always found a way to emote so that the people in the very last row felt it. The very best manage without the help of a camera. I also never loved Kwans spiral because of the face she made during it. That's just...odd.
    Yeah but have you see Yuna live? I have and even next to Michelle. Actually just like your experience with Michelle, according to some fancams I can see some Korean audience are all visibly shaken and teared up, some even burst out crying at the end of the performance, does remind you of Michelle at US Nationals?

    Actually, I think i figured out what what is the problem might be here.

    Yuna is too darn fast in her choreography. It is like she is clearly projecting on all the photographs taken during the performance, but yet somehow this didn't give the youtube audience enough time to intake her projection due to the jam packed choreography. It is like Zooooom... its gone.

    Seriously... i mean just look at all these photographic evidence. Are these not emotional projection enough? What does she have to do?

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/queenyuna/page7/

    Her biggest problem maybe she need to cut down half of the choreography, skate at 50% speed so she can conform to the standard lady speed, and give the youtube audiences a bit the time to absorb her 'emotional projection' at a pace they are used to and comfortable.

    Ideally make a point to pause in front of the camera and judging panel, include a new poseography sequence while she bawls her eyes out. It is time to train wet eyetography Yuna. Excercise your tear duct muscles....give them what they want
    Last edited by os168; 01-09-2013 at 07:09 PM.

  20. #180
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    I have seen Yuna live at Worlds 2009. Didn't feel a thing. But I did wave a small Korean flag handed to me by her fans.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

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