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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Emotional and intellectual connection with the music is evaluated as part of the Performance/Execution component.
    How can any judge (or anyone for that matter) evaluate something as complex and inner as this with any kind of accuracy or objectiveness? To determine intellectual connection, wouldn't they also need to have a conversation with the skater? And, then you have to trust that the judge intellectually and emotionally himself has the capacity to understand what the connection should be. All of the things being judged look good on paper, but I think we have gone much too far.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Totally agree. The jumps were sublime. The rest of it............really felt soul-less. Don't know if it was the choreography, the particular music version, or her head just not in the game. I kept waiting for something "big" to happen.........a definitive movement to that amazing music......like the buildup to a MK spiral........or passion....the buildup you should have in a skate......think V/M telling a story. They are not just doing moves and tricks.

    Anyway, I am sure it will be better at worlds.
    For me the opening movement was definitive. Also some of the asymmetric body lines in the step sequence.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    I think the key difference is that Chan keeps pushing himself to improve his artistry and become an even better skater than he was last season. I don't see that with Yu Na. Of course, Patrick does not have an OGM.
    The key difference is that YuNa contributed a lot to skating already (she will in the future too), but Chan is jut doing it.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleWallie View Post
    Why don't we all take a step back from this heated debate and enjoy it again? Here's the best fancam I've seen of the performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dFVyyK4#t=135s

    There's something about this camera's angle that makes Yuna's skating so lovely to behold.
    That is a fantastic camera work, wow! It only gets better and better each time I watch this performance.

  5. #125
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    Well, I'm thrilled with Yuna's new programs, especially with her FS. The music from Les Mis coupled with her choreography is just beautiful to watch and I find it very moving.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleWallie View Post
    Why don't we all take a step back from this heated debate and enjoy it again? Here's the best fancam I've seen of the performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dFVyyK4#t=135s

    There's something about this camera's angle that makes Yuna's skating so lovely to behold.
    This is a much better angle for this program. You can see her emoting more here. There were still parts when she seems to be mentally checked out of the performance but still, here you can see a lot more of her emotional investment and effort than in the video in the OP. A great performance with jumps so late in the program, the tech score would be huge, if clean.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewood View Post
    The key difference is that YuNa contributed a lot to skating already (she will in the future too), but Chan is jut doing it.
    What exactly has she contributed that Chan hasn't???

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    How can any judge (or anyone for that matter) evaluate something as complex and inner as this with any kind of accuracy or objectiveness? To determine intellectual connection, wouldn't they also need to have a conversation with the skater?
    I always thought skating should introduce American Idol style critiques from the judges.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    I always thought skating should introduce American Idol style critiques from the judges.
    LMAO! Now that would be a great way for the sport to gain some popularity! Introduce the Simon of the judging panel. He'll be a mid-aged stuffy British man who mercilessly rips the skaters a new one...

    In Simon Cowell's voice: "That was one of the worst layback spins I've ever seen...absolutely dreadful."

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Good! Then I assume he/she would be keen on understanding and acknowledging the strengths of the skaters too and at the least balanced in his/her opinion. Otherwise I don’t give a hoot if he/she’s an expert, a judge, or a teacher of judges.
    So the opinions of someone formally trained in evaluating skating performances don't mean as much to you as the opinion of some anonymous poster with no qualifications?
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    In Simon Cowell's voice: "That was one of the worst layback spins I've ever seen...absolutely dreadful."
    That's something I'd say. Can I play Simon ?

  12. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleWallie View Post
    Why don't we all take a step back from this heated debate and enjoy it again? Here's the best fancam I've seen of the performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dFVyyK4#t=135s

    There's something about this camera's angle that makes Yuna's skating so lovely to behold.
    Thank you so much!!
    This camera work is just incredible. Can't believe this is a fancam version.
    And I enjoyed the gorgeous banners around the rink. So happy for the fans who could appreciate this performance live.

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
    How can any judge (or anyone for that matter) evaluate something as complex and inner as this with any kind of accuracy or objectiveness? To determine intellectual connection, wouldn't they also need to have a conversation with the skater? And, then you have to trust that the judge intellectually and emotionally himself has the capacity to understand what the connection should be. All of the things being judged look good on paper, but I think we have gone much too far.
    Emotion is a subjective concept so is hard to evaluate. In fact there are a number of aspects that go to make up each component so you have to balance one against another. Have a look at this document which explains each of the component criteria - http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

    So just as there has obviously been a division of opinion about whether people were affected emotionally by Yu Na's performance, yes it may have an impact on how a person views the performance and it could have an impact on how a judge evaluates it. For yourself you may have felt something. For myself I didn't feel much at all. But that is not the only criteria I am looking at. And I think from a judging point of view you have to ask yourself questions as the performance is going along to help you with the criteria. It can take years of practise to get in tune with that and you certainly have to watch a hell of a lot of skating.

    For example intellectual connection with the music is something I feel really comfortable evaluating. Because having played music and studied it, I really do look for all those aspects such as timing, phrasing and nuances. Does the skater hold a move with the note? Is the skater on the beat? Is the skater skating to the melody or the beat? Does the skater create pictures in the music for me? If I turned the music off would I see something in the skaters performance to show that the skater is working with the music or just skating through it?

    And that is only the intellectual part of it. Then you have to look at the success of whether it works choreographically and interpretively which are other components.

    I have read some comments in this thread that have really put down others' opinions (mine included). However I can certainly explain from a judging and music point of view why the performance was not as successful for myself in certain component aspects, and I do feel from my years of experience with skating, judging and music that I am qualified to do that. That is not putting the skater down but rather providing an explanation as to why it works for some people and doesn't work for others. But those opinions should be respected and not dismissed out of hand.
    Last edited by Aussie Willy; 01-08-2013 at 09:23 PM.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripleWallie View Post
    Why don't we all take a step back from this heated debate and enjoy it again? Here's the best fancam I've seen of the performance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dFVyyK4#t=135s

    There's something about this camera's angle that makes Yuna's skating so lovely to behold.
    Thank you! It is a much better angle, allowing us to see Yu-Na's and Wilson's intent much better.
    I have some quibbles with "On My Own" section, but overall impression is strong.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  15. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    Good! Then I assume he/she would be keen on understanding and acknowledging the strengths of the skaters too and at the least balanced in his/her opinion. Otherwise I don’t give a hoot if he/she’s an expert, a judge, or a teacher of judges.
    I find Aussie Willie's posts insightful and balanced - IMO she consciously strives to apply what she has learned and develop her judging ability. I enjoy and learn from her posts.

  16. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    I find Aussie Willie's posts insightful and balanced - IMO she consciously strives to apply what she has learned and develop her judging ability. I enjoy and learn from her posts.
    Absolutely. So do I.
    One might disagree with an expert, but at least one has to acknowledge they earned a right to their opinion; it is based on years of training.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    I agree. It's always nice to have a story but I don't think skating to a certain type of music requires that you play the character associated with that music. Sometimes it's better but at times connecting to the music is more important than trying to tell a story or portray a character...
    Exactly. Michelle Kwan certainly never played the character of "Tosca," but it was still a very strong program.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  18. #138
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    Aussie Willy, love your post. I too studied and played music for many years but was never a figure skating judge. I've also studied ballet although not nearly as long as music and feel that this knowledge plus experience of watching figure skating for as long as I can remember, definitely makes me an informed fan. I know Yuna had said that skating is not the same as ballet, well, that's obvious. However, it wouldn't hurt her to learn some, not only for a better body line but also for understanding of musical phrasing and how you could better interpret it with your body movements, an area where she needs considerable improvement.

    Or at the very least, study music. Carolina Kostner was never a balletic skater but she won me over last season with her wonderful understanding of such a complex piece as Shostakovich. And her Mozart was lovely. She has become a very musical skater.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Technically that was a great program. She did not miss a beat with those elements and her jump technique is outstanding. However choreographically it was rather juniorish and all at one level although some moments worked with the phrasing of the music. Maybe that could be because the program is still being worked in. Although for a skater at that level, whilst it is all very well to say that the choreographer hasn't done a good job, the skater has to invest something of themselves into the performance.
    What exactly does this mean? What is it about Yuna's performance that leads you to conclude that she didn't invest herself in it? Can you give an example of where she does and where she does not?

  20. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Whole post
    You're right! Couldn't agree more.
    Hope Yuna's program to express all the emotion to all the skating fan and judges. If reflected, your comments could make the program richer.

    Some posts were a bit sensitive and one-way though, it was worth to read. I mean they're not an expert as you are but they're good on Les miserable. Reading your and others' post, I ordered DVD "LES MISERABLES: IN CONCERT 25TH ANNIVERSARY".

    ETA, Yuna said "I saw the DVD so many times and movie twice" and her coaches did too.
    Last edited by RunnersHigh; 01-09-2013 at 01:25 AM.
    This too will pass away.

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