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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Willy View Post
    Ummm I am not sure the program was meant to be anything than just selection of music from the musical that she was skating to.
    If such is the case why bother have any music interpretation at all?

    This particular music edit of Les Miserable is intricate and heavily edit with much care and attention. It is not some random piece of music plonked one after the other following any linear story line like some typical faithful adaptations. There are meaning and purpose behind the music reconstruct on at a meta level including prototyping and reshaping music epic to follow certain creative directions from the team. Otherwise they could have just picked a famous song like 'I dream a dream', romanticise the heck out of it and that would be end of it. Why make their own lives more complicated?

    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    *sigh* Let me try this a little more slowly for you.
    In my original post, all I inferred was that YuNa needed to project more to the audience for the entire LP as I felt she was so busy concentrating on the technical but that with more practice, this might not be as much of a problem at Worlds. YOU decided I had no idea what the songs were or what they were even about and that if she was more of an introvert it was because that's what the song was about and she should do a literal interpretation of "On My Own" when I hinted nothing of the sort. At which point I figured you assumed I thought YuNa was doing some smaller retelling of Les Miserables what with taking some obscure portion of my first post and wildly misinterpreting what I said and then getting your underwear in a twist and trying to tell me I don't know anything about the musical at all.
    Oh, and the "other actresses" part: you are aware that Les Miserables has been staged hundreds of times in lots of other locations besides London, right? And that many, many actresses have played the part of Eponine on stage, yes? Now go back and re-read what I said.
    Can you get anymore condescending or insulting?

    Disagree 100% projection is the only way to perform ANY live performances, and certainly not for the 'On My Own' section of the program. Reason explained already. What made that piece of music spoke to people is because of its internal monologue qualities. In all the stage directions I have seen, it was never about the actress projection outwards but more demand the audience projecting inwards as if they are eave dropping on something quietly intimate, deeply personal and painful. If other 'hundreds' of Eponine/actresses sang to the audience and made eye contact as if she is happily and willingly sharing her most intimate moment and pushing the idea of inviting sympathy down the audience's throats, then clearly they are doing a VERY poor job, and harms the integrity of the character of Eponine, given the meaning of the song is selflessly giving and not expect any receiving. Les Mis started in London more than 27 years ago, it is the musical that launched hundreds of other musicals in London Westend and around the world. It is certainly the musical that made me fell in love with live theatre, so yeah I am very protective of it, more than any other B productions out there at village halls or high school plays which frankly I don't give a toss.

    In anycase, a nitpicker is a nitpicker, how about go nit picking somewhere else and leave my underwear out of it! (I can't believe I am typing this on a Monday morning WTH?!)


    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Uh, I'm sorry. But a person is entitled to feel whichever way they do about a program even if they have NEVER listened to the particular music once. Besides, it's not like Les Mis is some arcane piece of work that is only understood by a few or requires some acquired taste of music. The music is pop enough and pretty easy to listen to and the lyrics explains itself so I'm not sure why you had to write a dissertation about it. I find it especially funny that posters feel the need to overanalyse a program which really wasn't meant to be analysed in such details because there really isn't that much stuff in there. Just sit back and enjoy her jumps
    Sure anyone is entitled to feel and believe what they feel and believe, just don't be surprised there are others who disagrees because they are better informed. Bach was pop, Strauss was Pop, Tchaikovsky was pop during their days, what is your point here? Les Miserable is quality music and it will last well beyond next centuries just like Bizet's Carmen easily. In any case my 'dissertation' (what university did you go to warrant such a short dissertation?) was to martyross because I know he has the propensity to appreciate a healthy discussion on artistry beyond the obvious, and speculate over the creativity decisions that can elevate certain skating programs beyond COP parameters. To be open minded enough to have a sound discussion without taking things personally, and be sensitive and considered enough not to see everything in black and white at a reductionist COP level. I find funny given this suppose to be s a figure skating board that is suppose to celebrate good figure skating, yet it doesn't seem to welcome much analysis to what would constitute towards a longevity and credibility of great program beyond the 'I don't like it because she is not wearing white boots which I really lurrrve' variety.

    Overanalyse things? How about not analyse them enough to improve the quality of artistry output, which explains the state of this sport and its inability to rise beyond its status quo? It is about changing assumptions that 100% full on emotional projection automatically equals best presentation without considering of the the meaning and purpose behind the music and art direction which they are projecting. Music is not meaningless complementary noises there to garnish choreography movements designed for attractive COP number crunching .

    If such is true, then Morozov must be God here ... *shudders* wait.. on that thought - I am outta here!
    Last edited by os168; 01-07-2013 at 11:13 AM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by centerstage01 View Post
    I truly hope the wink at the end there means you're kidding.
    I meant it absolutely.
    Be with me always—take any form—drive me mad! only do not leave me in this abyss, where I cannot find you! Oh, God! it is unutterable! I cannot live without my life! I cannot live without my soul!"

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbleFish View Post
    She probably chose the program to jump on the Les Miserables bandwagon. I don't see anything in her performance that relates with the original. Anyone who seriously enjoyed Hugo's novel or watched the musical would agree with this. Please take a step back and listen to all the posters who don't really appreciate the program.
    They WON"T appreciate no matter what she does. If Yu-Na/Wilson picked one phase of the novel/musical, and did an in-depth interpretation of that specific sub-theme, they WILL complain on and on about her failure in portraying the overall or comprehensive impression/atmosphere of the subject matter.

    The way I see it, it's them who need to step back and view her performance in a broad perspective. It's significance/influence to the current state of ladies, let alone being another of Yu-Na's own memorable performance, this time monumental in the sense that it was done before the home fans in what could be her final competition at home, domestic or international.

    She and D Wilson came up with two beautiful programs, IMO better than anyone else's in this season.

    Fixed-angle fancam of Yu-Na's FS from a far-side top deck, showing the entire rink
    It shows well her speed and coverage. The latter scene is reminiscent of the Michelle Kwan moment at 2004(?) US Nationals.

  4. #64
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    No one has criticized her wearing her boots covered yet!!!!!

  5. #65
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    People predisposed to dislike a skater, no matter what the reason, will always see what they "want" to see - that is the way the human mind works. You hear and see what you desire to hear and see. This applies to any form of art. In order to fairly evaluate any ice-skating performance, you have to place your mind in a totally open frame of reference, all fan allegiances fall away, you relax, you let the music and performance enter your mind and let your soul openly experience it. This is EXTREMELY hard to do, often we purposely look for some flaw or anything that will satisfy our predispositions, and this leads to bias in our evaluations. It is sad but true, and we are all guilty of it. Hopefully, ISU skating judges try hard to be objective - that is their professional duty - but I'm sure many of them let predispositions interfere sometimes.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jatale View Post
    People predisposed to dislike a skater, no matter what the reason, will always see what they "want" to see - that is the way the human mind works. You hear and see what you desire to hear and see. This applies to any form of art. In order to fairly evaluate any ice-skating performance, you have to place your mind in a totally open frame of reference, all fan allegiances fall away, you relax, you let the music and performance enter your mind and let your soul openly experience it. This is EXTREMELY hard to do, often we purposely look for some flaw or anything that will satisfy our predispositions, and this leads to bias in our evaluations. It is sad but true, and we are all guilty of it. Hopefully, ISU skating judges try hard to be objective - that is their professional duty - but I'm sure many of them let predispositions interfere sometimes.
    And people predisposed to like a skater will do exactly the same.....

    So in the greater scheme of things, it all balances out

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    And people predisposed to like a skater will do exactly the same.....

    So in the greater scheme of things, it all balances out
    That’s true, but simplistic at the same time. One can’t deny there are those who like to propagandize against Yu-Na, all the time, for whatever reason they can come up with, over and over again.

    I understand that some fans can be genuinely predisposed to dislike her for whatever reason/taste. But they need to be at least fair. For example, some people typically nitpick on her layback, spiral, lines, toes, etc. IMO her laybacks and spirals are excellent. As for the layback, her upper body is very flexible and you don’t see too many ladies goes that far with her back (not side-way) and spin as fast and centered. About the spiral, her positions, edges, control and speed are all excellent. Some might complain her free leg not extended or high enough, but I like the way she hold her dignity by keeping her shoulder, neck and head straightened up throughout, and her extension is fine, except for the toe.

    Her lines and arms too are excellent, ever since her beginning as a junior skater. I also hear them complaining about her not being “balletic” enough. Yu-Na once said (some years ago), “Figure skating and ballet are not the same, are they?” I totally agree with her. The influence of classical music and ballet on figure skating can’t be downplayed. But it’s becoming more and more banalized, and the ladies' programs to balletic music usually show juvenile level ballet moves. Who would be interested in that? Skating fans? Ballet fans? IMO this sport, especially the ladies skating, needs to extend its boundary to incorporate new themes, routines and new performance and athletic (speed, control, et al) standards. I believe Yu-Na has already contributed much to that end. IMO the ladies figure skating can be popular again, and she showed the way.
    Last edited by lowtherlore; 01-07-2013 at 02:41 PM.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    I understand that some fans can be genuinely predisposed to dislike her for whatever reason/taste. But they need to be at least fair. For example, some people typically nitpick on her layback, spiral, lines, toes, etc. IMO her laybacks and spirals are excellent.
    So those of us who don't like spirals with unpointed toes must be cogs in a YuNa anti-propaganda machine? It couldn't possibly be our preference for the element? I can only speak for myself, but that always makes the move look unfinished in my book. Doesn't mean I don't understand there are things a skater could do well to get good GOE's, like speed, edge quality, ice coverage, difficult transitions, etc. It also doesn't mean I have to like the spiral despite what I perceive to be a shortcoming. And, I enjoy YuNa skating, btw. Just not her spiral sequences.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    That’s true, but simplistic at the same time. One can’t deny there are those who like to propagandize against Yu-Na, all the time, for whatever reason they can come up with, over and over again.
    I was being slightly sarcastic with that second line

    But again, it is likewise undeniable that there are also those who "propagandize" in favor of Yu-na, and who will try to hammer home to anyone who isn't converted yet why she is such a supreme skater, even if you're just not interested

    (and then most people will actually be in neither camp but somewhere in the middle)

    Both exist. And that is true about most skaters - Yu-na being only a special case in that she has a larger fanbase (and therefore anti-base) than most skaters of her generation

    In a sense, that's rather flattering - that means a lot of people care, one way or another

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    So those of us who don't like spirals with unpointed toes must be cogs in a YuNa anti-propaganda machine? It couldn't possibly be our preference for the element? I can only speak for myself, but that always makes the move look unfinished in my book. Doesn't mean I don't understand there are things a skater could do well to get good GOE's, like speed, edge quality, ice coverage, difficult transitions, etc. It also doesn't mean I have to like the spiral despite what I perceive to be a shortcoming. And, I enjoy YuNa skating, btw. Just not her spiral sequences.
    You are over reacting. I wasn't naming you and I said I understand people can have different standards. But I do feel that your quote of my post is taken out of context. That said, there ARE people who are determined to propagandize against Yu-Na. Again, I'm not saying you are one.

    If you are annoyed by her not pointing toes, that's fine.

  11. #71

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    Well, you said people like to propagandize against her and then brought up lack of extension on her spirals as an example just three sentences afterwards. I was just pointing out that's often a personal preference for the skill -you weren't bothered by that, I was- not a pro or anti YuNa stance.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    I was being slightly sarcastic with that second line

    But again, it is likewise undeniable that there are also those who "propagandize" in favor of Yu-na, and who will try to hammer home to anyone who isn't converted yet why she is such a supreme skater, even if you're just not interested

    (and then most people will actually be in neither camp but somewhere in the middle)

    Both exist. And that is true about most skaters - Yu-na being only a special case in that she has a larger fanbase (and therefore anti-base) than most skaters of her generation

    In a sense, that's rather flattering - that means a lot of people care, one way or another
    I agree with most of what you said. But propagandizing in favor of Yu-Na? In what sense? By stating that she has such and such good qualities/achievements, or by denying the very existence of her short-comings? I haven’t seen much of the latter by her fans in this forum. The way I see it, her uber fans are rather reserved in gushing over her in international forums.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    Well, you said people like to propagandize against her and then brought up lack of extension on her spirals as an example just three sentences afterwards. I was just pointing out that's often a personal preference for the skill -you weren't bothered by that, I was- not a pro or anti YuNa stance.
    I said what you said was true, but simplistic, because I believe there are THOSE in this forum who are determined to criticize her, no matter what she does. About the genuine preference on skating standards and personal tastes, I respect others' opinions including yours.

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    I said what you said was true, but simplistic, because I believe there are THOSE in this forum who are determined to criticize her, no matter what she does.
    Well, give this a few more weeks (or even days) and you'll have the great pleasure of meeting ubers who are just as annoying as haterz and believe any criticism is an over-the-top personal attack against YuNa. It's not over-simplifying, just being experienced and cynical .

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    Can you get anymore condescending or insulting?
    Is that a joke when you have been nothing but condescending and insulting in all your responses to the poster?

    Yu-Na was great, still reminds me of Vancouver which isn't a good thing for me personally because I just didn't see a fire. But still it was beautiful and technically so far of everyone else is it almost laughable.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ioana View Post
    Well, give this a few more weeks (or even days) and you'll have the great pleasure of meeting ubers who are just as annoying as haterz and believe any criticism is an over-the-top personal attack against YuNa. It's not over-simplifying, just being experienced and cynical .
    I seriously doubt it. In most cases, it would be the opposite, believe me. That comes from my experience.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    That’s true, but simplistic at the same time. One can’t deny there are those who like to propagandize against Yu-Na, all the time, for whatever reason they can come up with, over and over again.
    It's not unique to Yuna, it happens to all the skaters.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by ponta1 View Post
    It's not unique to Yuna, it happens to all the skaters.
    Here's one who can't wait.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    I agree with most of what you said. But propagandizing in favor of Yu-Na? In what sense? By stating that she has such and such good qualities/achievements, or by denying the very existence of her short-comings? I haven’t seen much of the latter by her fans in this forum. The way I see it, her uber fans are rather reserved in gushing over her in international forums.
    This is the first time I am on this forum and that she's skating but every other forum I have visited during the Olympics or Worlds 2010 were full of ubers and haters both and their constant wars were one of the reasons I continued to stay away from skating online fora for a while longer

    I am now waiting to see if I'll need to run for cover or not

    Although now that I am looking at the last few posts since yours, I wouldn't call a comment such as "it was beautiful and technically so far of everyone else is it almost laughable." reserved but maybe that's just me *shrug*

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    Yu-Na threads NEVER disappoint.

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