Yuna shines in qualifying for worlds

[lowtherlore]

This is the first time I am on this forum and that she's skating but every other forum I have visited during the Olympics or Worlds 2010 were full of ubers and haters both and their constant wars were one of the reasons I continued to stay away from skating online fora for a while longer

I am now waiting to see if I'll need to run for cover or not

Although now that I am looking at the last few posts since yours, I wouldn't call a comment such as "it was beautiful and technically so far of everyone else is it almost laughable." reserved but maybe that's just me *shrug*

Oh no, don't run for cover! You'll miss all the fun up to Sochi (or possibly, although unlikely, all the way to PyeongChang).

Praising her technical proficiency is understandable, isn't it. No need to be reserved in stating the current state of things. BUT IMO so-called yunabots ARE reserved in gushing over her in international forums, and the poster you quoted is not a uber fan I believe.

[rayhaneh]

Oh no, don't run for cover! You'll miss all the fun up to Sochi (or possibly, although unlikely, all the way to PyeongChang).

Praising her technical proficiency is understandable, isn't it. No need to be reserved in stating the current state of things. BUT IMO so-called yunabots ARE reserved in gushing over her in international forums, and the poster you quoted is not a uber fan I believe.

Well, that will all depend on how bad fan wars will turn out to be - we'll see soon enough

I have nothing against stating that she was above the competition at Vancouver. I have nothing against singing the praises of her technicality and other many qualities. But personally, implying that everyone else's level is laughable goes beyond praising her technical proficiency and approches the rather muddy territory of derogatory statement towards the other athletes

But as I said, we will all have different views on this. I can only share my own

[lowtherlore]

Well, that will all depend on how bad fan wars will turn out to be - we'll see soon enough

I have nothing against stating that she was above the competition at Vancouver. I have nothing against singing the praises of her technicality and other many qualities. But personally, implying that everyone else's level is laughable goes beyond praising her technical proficiency and approches the rather muddy territory of derogatory statement towards the other athletes

But as I said, we will all have different views on this. I can only share my own

I understand your saying, although to me it's not clear what the OP meant by "laughable" -- whether to comment on the skaters' abilities or to poke fun at the current state of ladies competition. It IS true the technical contents and performance level of ladies went backwards since Vancouver. Anyway, again I don't believe the OP is a Yu-Na uber.

[Jarrett]

This is the first time I am on this forum and that she's skating but every other forum I have visited during the Olympics or Worlds 2010 were full of ubers and haters both and their constant wars were one of the reasons I continued to stay away from skating online fora for a while longer

I am now waiting to see if I'll need to run for cover or not

Although now that I am looking at the last few posts since yours, I wouldn't call a comment such as "it was beautiful and technically so far of everyone else is it almost laughable." reserved but maybe that's just me *shrug*

I'm not an uber or a hater. Any person who looks at the base score sees that yuna is maxing out the jumps. Add that to her GOE. Pretty much untouchable if moderately clean.

[RoseAugust]

I find it really fun to watch such a great jumper. The rest of her skating doesn't impress me quite so much, but the jumps have me smiling big time and if a skater has me smiling at the end of a program, it's all good (for me).

[IceAlisa]

Well that would be me that said that and whilst you may have seen it one way, I saw it a different way. The program technically was brilliant - fantastic jumps. But choreographically was not the same standard. There was some working with the phrasing of the music but it lacked refinement in the moves or connection to the music. And I was not getting much emotion being put out there. There was not much variety in the types of moves or gestures presented by the skater. From my judging eye, it did appear juniorish. However she has only performed it twice in competition. Programs do take time to develop and have to be worked in. Skaters sometimes have to learn to connect to the music and find their way through it. At worlds it may be on a totally different level.

I agree although it didn't occur to me to call it "juniorish" because her jumps are so dazzling. But I know what you mean.

[kwanatic]

Good for Yu-Na! Very solid technical performance in front of a home crowd and in a freezing rink (from what the reports say).

I'm not a fan of her programs this year. After having watched them half a dozen times I've given up trying to convince myself I like them. Yu-Na's standards are so high in my mind that these programs just aren't doing it for me. That being said, with her technical content as it is, she doesn't need to have the absolute best program to win this year. With some of the top competitors not stacking triples like in the past, Yu-Na's money jumps are the 3lz-3t, solo 3lz and 3f; those 3 jumping passes right there are enough content to carry her. The other jumping passes will be like icing on the cake...and that's not even counting her SP. If she hits the SP clean she'll probably going into the LP with a 5-7 point lead.

I wonder if she'll be able to replicate that performance at worlds? If not, like I said, if she can hit those three "money" jumping passes, she'll be in 1st or 2nd place depending on what others do...

[bardtoob]

Well that would be me that said that and whilst you may have seen it one way, I saw it a different way. The program technically was brilliant - fantastic jumps. But choreographically was not the same standard. There was some working with the phrasing of the music but it lacked refinement in the moves or connection to the music. And I was not getting much emotion being put out there. There was not much variety in the types of moves or gestures presented by the skater. From my judging eye, it did appear juniorish. However she has only performed it twice in competition. Programs do take time to develop and have to be worked in. Skaters sometimes have to learn to connect to the music and find their way through it. At worlds it may be on a totally different level.

I saw emotion in the performance, as if she really liked to skate, but I did not think the choreography was particularly to the music. I think the program would still score very high, although judges are not really supposed to judge emotional connection as part of the choreography. Choreography is element placement, use of the ice, and gestures to the music.

Somebody said to me that she was only at about 90% at this point in her training, so I'm thinking she only has the element placement and ice usage down, not the gestures to the music . . . which could make all the difference to some.

ETA: I am not saying you were including emotion as part of the choreography, Aussie.

[PUNKPRINCESS]

No one has criticized her wearing her boots covered yet!!!!!

Ha.

My take on it:

She does not have the best "lines", overall. Her lower-body movement and legs are not the best. To me, they are not awful, but certainly not one of the strengths that set her apart from other high-level skaters. Her upper-body movement is fantastic, though.

Emotional engagement is somewhere in the middle. I have seen her do more although not quite on the same scale as say, Michelle Kwan. That's fine. She's an emotionally quieter skater. Her jumps do most of the talking, and they are loud.

It was a very strong skate. I am going to wait to see if her nerves hold up in an international competition with real challengers, and I sure hope they do.

I am surprised there weren't a ton of posters frothing at the mouth about how un-balletic she is, since that is what I experienced the last time I was here.

[PUNKPRINCESS]

^ Saw emotion in the performance, as if she really liked to skate, but I did not think the choreography was particularly to the music. I think the program would still score very high, although judges are not really supposed to judge emotional connection as part of the choreography. Choreography is element placement, use of the ice, and gestures to the music.

Yes, but emotional connection and projection to the audience is part of Performance, if I remember correctly.

[kwanatic]

I thought the same too but overall, I just don't like either program. The music is too dramatic in the SP and I'm just not feeling the Les Mis edits at all. I kept wondering what she could add to it that would make me like it but I don't think it's her performance; it's the programs overall. Some were emotionally moved to tears...not even close for me, though I've never been emotionally moved by Yu-Na to be honest. Her skating has always entertained me and certain programs really pull me in but it's never been on an emotional level. I just enjoy watching her skate. These programs are decent but Yu-Na's standard is "great" in my mind and, to me, neither of these programs are great.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But if people were boo-hooing while watching her, she must be doing something right...even if I don't get it

[bardtoob]

Yes, but emotional connection and projection to the audience is part of Performance, if I remember correctly.

I'm not certain about that either since the PCS category is "Performance Execution", not just performance.

[PUNKPRINCESS]

I thought the same too but overall, I just don't like either program. The music is too dramatic in the SP and I'm just not feeling the Les Mis edits at all. I kept wondering what she could add to it that would make me like it but I don't think it's her performance; it's the programs overall. Some were emotionally moved to tears...not even close for me, though I've never been emotionally moved by Yu-Na to be honest. Her skating has always entertained me and certain programs really pull me in but it's never been on an emotional level. I just enjoy watching her skate. These programs are decent but Yu-Na's standard is "great" in my mind and, to me, neither of these programs are great.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. But if people were boo-hooing while watching her, she must be doing something right...even if I don't get it

Same here.

I also really think David Wilson is losing his touch. Too bad for me as a fan of Yu-Na; I think her best programs were her 2011 FS and her Lark Ascending (2007?), which unfortunately were never skated clean.

[kwanatic]

Ha.

My take on it:

She does not have the best "lines", overall. Her lower-body movement and legs are not the best. To me, they are not awful, but certainly not one of the strengths that set her apart from other high-level skaters. Her upper-body movement is fantastic, though.

ITA. I would like to see her skate sans the OTBs. A lot of the senior ladies have ditched the covers...I'd love to see Yu-Na do the same. Besides, they aren't doing Yu-Na any favors anyway. She's always had heavy-looking, kinda blocky feet and I don't think that's going to change. With the OTBs it makes her feet look even clunkier. I don't really notice her feet as much when she skates without the OTBs...I hope someone suggests that to her.

But Yu-Na's upper body lines are wonderful. Very elegant, graceful and fluid...it's an interesting contrast. I've gotten over her less than stellar lower body lines though. The only time I really notice them are in her spins and spiral.

Has she ever tried a spiral a la Nancy Kerrigan? http://web.mit.edu/skatingclub/image...y_kerrigan.jpg

She'd get a straighter and better upper body line, more elevation in the free leg, plus it might be easier to point her toe and turn it out...just a suggestion.

[martyross]

I have always had a theory that "Someone like you" feels like Wilson's good bye love song to Yuna while paying tribute to their working history/friendship over the years on the assumption Yuna will retire soon, and that would be the end of their competitive days. It is full of forlorn feelings that is intimate, familiar, complex and as intense as lovers goodbyes. His choreography for that program feels like a collage of many of his 'best of' moves to celebrate and paying tribute to their collaborative days. Many moves subsequently came to be known as Wilson-esque signatures that became the de facto choreography vocabulary of the COP era. In that respect, it may feel generic by today's standards due to its familiarity, but they are also what established Wilson's brand. Their contribution towards each other's success cannot be understated. Yuna's sporting and artistic success validates Wilson's COP work, and also vice versa.

Bear in mind, 'generic' moves doesn't always start as 'generic' until someone first establish them. Others follow them. Or them being replicated due to established success. There's a fine line between something described as generic when it is an 'imitation' vs something that is 'classic' when it is being performed by the original team that founded them. Otherwise it is like going to a Prada shop and complain why everything black and boring. Or go to a James Cameron movie and complain there's too much special effects and why the love stories always so cheesy?

I'd argue the middle section 'on my own' does contains certain archetype Wilson/Yuna choreography, but actually it fit the messages of the music well. 'On my Own' is Eponine's internal dialogue about feelings and contemplation about love, hope, loss, regrets, lingers of sweet bitterness; to learn the meaning/value of true love and acceptance of selflessness. The choreography therefore should be without pretension or fuss and at its most intimate natural state; heartfelt and honest. Choreographically, to harness that visceral fortitude Wilson became familiar with Yuna over their years together, he naturally select their classic moves which embodies these biographical qualities that fit the story the best, something he tends to do with his skaters. Perhaps this is why that part reminded programs like "Someone like you" which shares similar biographical qualities. This is not to say the work could not be more original or creative, but it does explain why such an approach has been adapted rather than blame it entirely on complacency.

Thanks for the long reply, os168 (: I find your take on "Someone like you" and "On my own" interesting, and I think you’re right in saying that Wilson wanted to let Yu-Na talk about herself in “On my own” section. This makes it very special, wathever coreography he put in it.
Well, probably it’s a matter of personal reasons behind my little criticism, as I have some issues with the musical and the book itself (an epic, gigantic novel I worshipped some years ago until I switched to a permanent phase of rejection toward eighteen century romanticism). Don’t want to go OT too much, just to briefly say that the novel sounds quite tear-jerking in describing some situations, which is typical of that era of course, but to make a musical out of it dangerously leads to even more tear-jerking effects. the whole operation is unintentionally plagued by bad taste. As we all know, poverty is a serious matter. It must not be treated with a tear-jerking tone. Yes, thousands of people are moved to tears by the misfortunes of the good, generous characters, especially because their actions are described in a melodramatic fashion. But in all this crying and tearing-up etc., we end up feeling a certain narcissistic pleasure, which is actually the pleasure of seeing them suffering, dying tragically, etc. We could call it a “sadistic” pleasure. That’s my problem with some famous stories coming from that era, such as Notre Dame de Paris, The lady of the camellias, etc. The bad taste may also lay in the fact that the book/musical audience is mostly composed of people who never knew real poverty, so a story about such theme must hurt this audience, not making it cry in a nice, pleasant and self-reassuring way. Yes, the novel is not just about poverty (and in fact the parts I like the most don’t deal with this “theme”), but I had to simplify for the sake of the readers’ patience ((:
The second problem with Eponine’s song especially, is that the lyrics are way too sentimental and trite, and doesn’t do justice to a very good character, although much idealized (according to the romantic canon). Of course the musical doesn't have to be absolutely faithful to the source. But I still think that the lyrics here are disappointing because they reduce Eponine’s feelings to the standard emotions of pop songs we’ve heard thousand of times.
As I said, the David’s choreography here doesn’t show much creativity and, for the reasons above, it runs the risk to increase the conventional tone in which Eponine's emotions were expressed in the first place. but I highly admire David Wilson’s genius (I love the “kitschy” Vampire program for the very reasons you’ve mentioned) and I can’t certainly dictate him to follow my personal preferences ((: of course, Yuna’s performance of Les Misérables is something to treasure for the purity and sincerity of her intentions.

[kwanatic]

Same here.

I also really think David Wilson is losing his touch. Too bad for me as a fan of Yu-Na; I think her best programs were her 2011 FS and her Lark Ascending (2007?), which unfortunately were never skated clean.

I don't think David's losing his touch. I think it's that both Yu-Na and David knew this would be a short season for her and decided to put together two programs that would get the job done. From the looks of it, neither program got the same attention to detail as Bond, Danse, Gershwin or even Homage.

I really wish she'd have stuck with Giselle and Homage this year. Giselle wasn't spectacular but I think it's much better than Vampire. But Homage was such a unique and personal program. The music edit was wonderful IMO. The whole program was well pieced together in a way that it felt like a ride; there were highs and lows, lighter parts and parts that were pensive and thoughtful. I really feel like Homage had the potential to be a masterpiece if she'd have gotten more mileage out of it. Comparing it to Les Mis...there is no comparison. Homage is leaps and bounds/light years better IMO.

*sigh* I really wanted to see her compete with those programs again...

[Aussie Willy]

If such is the case why bother have any music interpretation at all?

Regardless of where the music comes from, the skater should still be using it as the basis of the structure and choreographic content of the program. Put it this way, if someone had no knowledge of where that music came from or had never heard it, they should still understand the skater is creating pictures with it. So the skater needs to take into account the phrasing, timing and nuances to put together their program to demonstrate that they understand the music. At the end of the day it is a piece of music to skate to, but who really gives a rats whether they are basing it on a character from the musical where the music came from. As long as they use it to create a program which people can connect to and can understand a skaters choreographic intent.

[Aussie Willy]

I'm not certain about that either since the PCS category is "Performance Execution", not just performance.

Yes, but emotional connection and projection to the audience is part of Performance, if I remember correctly.

Emotional and intellectual connection with the music is evaluated as part of the Performance/Execution component.

[kwanette]

I saw emotion in the performance, as if she really liked to skate, but I did not think the choreography was particularly to the music. I think the program would still score very high, although judges are not really supposed to judge emotional connection as part of the choreography. Choreography is element placement, use of the ice, and gestures to the music.

Somebody said to me that she was only at about 90% at this point in her training, so I'm thinking she only has the element placement and ice usage down, not the gestures to the music . . . which could make all the difference to some.

ETA: I am not saying you were including emotion as part of the choreography, Aussie.

"Spark" doesn't count? Once upon a time it did.

[kwanatic]

Regardless of where the music comes from, the skater should still be using it as the basis of the structure and choreographic content of the program. Put it this way, if someone had no knowledge of where that music came from or had never heard it, they should still understand the skater is creating pictures with it. So the skater needs to take into account the phrasing, timing and nuances to put together their program to demonstrate that they understand the music. At the end of the day it is a piece of music to skate to, but who really gives a rats whether they are basing it on a character from the musical where the music came from. As long as they use it to create a program which people can connect to and can understand a skaters choreographic intent.

I agree. It's always nice to have a story but I don't think skating to a certain type of music requires that you play the character associated with that music. Sometimes it's better but at times connecting to the music is more important than trying to tell a story or portray a character...