What if T&D had competed from 1984-1994?

[Shyjosie]

I posted T&D's missing in the OP, but I didn't know they had done Eleanor Rigby too - does anyone have a video? That program is so underrated, and Paul D was brilliant in it.

Maybe I'm wrong, I remember some quote somewhere telling T/D skated that routine, too, but it needs to be confirmed, I can't tell for sure...
And yes, Paul Duchesnay was simply unbelievable in this one.

AFAIK, T/D competed in the 77-80 term as well, and took part in the Lake Placid Olympics, finishing 7th (?). But K/P competed for more than a decade, too, winning three Olympic medals.

[vivika1982]

I posted T&D's missing in the OP, but I didn't know they had done Eleanor Rigby too - does anyone have a video? That program is so underrated, and Paul D was brilliant in it.

They did perform it as "Eleonor's Dream" in early 1988 according to the following article in New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/22/ar...l?pagewanted=2

So far no videos

[lulu]

Maybe I'm wrong, I remember some quote somewhere telling T/D skated that routine, too, but it needs to be confirmed, I can't tell for sure...
And yes, Paul Duchesnay was simply unbelievable in this one.

AFAIK, T/D competed in the 77-80 term as well, and took part in the Lake Placid Olympics, finishing 7th (?). But K/P competed for more than a decade, too, winning three Olympic medals.

Per Wikipedia, K&P won the silver medal at the Golden Spin competition during the 1981-1982 season. If we count juniors, Sergei skated for even longer on the world stage. In 1978, he and his first partner won the first of their two titles as World Junior Ice Dance Champions.

You are right, T&D did skate to Eleanor Rigby, unfortunately, it looks like we may never see the routine for ourselves:
About Eleanor's Dream, also from Wiki:

"Little is known about this piece and it has never been released commercially and possibly never recorded. It was also created as one of their pieces for the 1987 Ice Capades Tour. In their autobiography Chris states that he actually passed on the dance for Isabelle and Paul Duchesnay to perform in 1988, stating that the dance was about the relationship between a boy and a girl with the boy breaking in upon the woman’s dreams...

Excerpt taken from: Torvill and Dean: Romancing the Ice - Ice Cycles 1988

Both Dean and Torvill seem eager for responses to their new routines in the show and gratified with the verdict that everything is just great, with special accolades going to "Eleanor Rigby". It was their newest routine and it's a very interesting version of the song, undertaken with Paul McCartney, having little relation to the earlier Beatles recording. The version used was from the soundtrack of McCartney's film Give My Regards to Broad Street. Dean and Torvill hated the movie but really liked that version of the song.

"It's sort of our version of a dream sequence," says Dean, referring to their routine.
"And I'm Eleanor," Torvill says simply.

Torvill is the fragile title character, clad in muted white with pastel tones across the costume. He is a kind of dream lover to her, dressed in mostly black; he is both exciting and dangerous. She fears him, but she wants him too, and eventually her desire overcomes her fear. That is ultimately her undoing, as he twirls her round and round his body and she can do nothing but be manoeuvred at this will. It ends with her in a crucifix form across his back as he carries her off into the fog. She was right to fear him after all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dean

[manhn]

If T&D skated til 1994, Calgary (the first time I really watched skating on TV) would've been so much more amazing. Although, I would be sad that W&M would not win an Oly medal (and with Rob's passing, they may never have won a World medal even if W&M would've decided to compete after 88).

Dean would very likely not have coached the Duchesneys. We may never have seen the Duchesnays' famous Tango OSP (or would T&D have performed the program?). I wonder if the skating programs in France and Britain would have changed.

[lulu]

I was actually just thinking of the impact T&D's staying eligible would have on teams such as W&M, A&S and U&Z. If T&D stayed eligible, and if K&P overtook B&B for the spot as the Soviets # 1, would B&B have retired sooner from eligible competition? If B&B retired around 1985/1986 and A&S became U.S.S.R's 2nd ice dance team after K&P, would W&M and A&S still finish 3-4 in the standings at Calgary? W&M had a great free dance and performance in front of the home home crowd in Calgary, but might the placements change if A&S gained a reputation for being the number 3 team after T&D and K&P?
On that note, if the Soviet team consisted of K&P, A&S and U&Z, how would Usova & Zhulin place? They placed 4th at the 1988 European Championships, with B&B winning gold, A&S silver and the Duchesnays the bronze.

[judgejudy27]

I was actually just thinking of the impact T&D's staying eligible would have on teams such as W&M, A&S and U&Z. If T&D stayed eligible, and if K&P overtook B&B for the spot as the Soviets # 1, would B&B have retired sooner from eligible competition? If B&B retired around 1985/1986 and A&S became U.S.S.R's 2nd ice dance team after K&P, would W&M and A&S still finish 3-4 in the standings at Calgary? W&M had a great free dance and performance in front of the home home crowd in Calgary, but might the placements change if A&S gained a reputation for being the number 3 team after T&D and K&P?
On that note, if the Soviet team consisted of K&P, A&S and U&Z, how would Usova & Zhulin place? They placed 4th at the 1988 European Championships, with B&B winning gold, A&S silver and the Duchesnays the bronze.

Hmm all interesting thoughts. I will say that I think with a Soviet sweep no longer a danger A&S finishing above W&M would be very possible (regardless whether or not merited), and that U&Z passing A&S sometime before they actually did in 1989 might well have occured if they were going to Worlds together from 86 and 87 onwards also. W&M, A&S, and U&Z could quite possibly have finished in any order in that scenario I imagine.

[Cherub721]

Thanks to everyone who posted info about T&D's Eleanor's Dream. Shame we never got to see it. As for this: "It ends with her in a crucifix form across his back as he carries her off into the fog. She was right to fear him after all" - no wonder he is called Mr. Void!

I don't think B&B would have retired before 88. They strike me as fighters and they had Tarasova behind them. They wouldn't have given up so easily, IMO. I know that some believe they didn't deserve their titles, but I felt that they were better than K&P from 85-88 because of their stronger choreography. K&P were so dull and generic in that era, and I think after T&D, the skating community wanted ice dance to keep that excitement, though they changed their minds by 1994 and keep pulling back every couple of years when they think it's too over the top. Now, in a scenario where T&D stayed, they would have their interesting champions, and indeed the judges would be free to put K&P above B&B based on their technique. I don't think B&B/Tarasova would have just lied down and taken it though, I think they would've pushed harder. As for K&P developing sooner artistically, I doubt it because Marina was just 18 in 1984. Post-88 was their prime time to begin experimenting. I love K&P but I actually think they were somewhat lucky to have won in 1989 and 1990 with such bland programs (lucky that the Duschenays did not have great basics, not lucky in the sense of politics).

And yes, I agree that A&S would probably pass W&M. I think A&S, like S&N in pairs in 1994, were victims of the judges not wanting the Soviets to sweep. So in this scenario, U&Z stay where they are, unless the Soviet Union looks at Zhulin and sees Dean potential, pushing them to Worlds over A&S.

[floskate]

This hasn't been mentioned but didn't T/D compete in the '77 - '80 quadrennial as well? I think it was quite standard in the 1980s to maximally compete in 2 quadrennials and then retire, especially if you were incredibly successful as they were. With that in mind, I doubt anything at the time would've encouraged them to compete until '88

This! Not only did they begin competing internationally in 1976 at St Gervais and Oberstdorf, but Jayne had competed internationally as a pair skater going back to 1972 when she came last in pairs at Europeans with Michael Hutchinson. I just can't see any scenario where they would have wanted to stay in at all. Chris would have felt stifled by the rules, they had made huge financial sacrifices and despite the grant from Nottingham County Council, they were in no way anywhere near as subsidised as the Soviets who, lets face it, didn't really have much of a say on when they retired. The fed did that for them Plus staying in they could have risked losing at some point which could have damaged their earning potential as pros. There was no way they would ever find a greater platform to launch such incredible professional careers as the one they found themselves in after the 1984 season. Why waste 4 years of earning power, unlimited creative freedom and the capacity to still skate at their highest level, just to stay in and hope the judges didn't get bored and dump them?

[olympic]

This! Not only did they begin competing internationally in 1976 at St Gervais and Oberstdorf, but Jayne had competed internationally as a pair skater going back to 1972 when she came last in pairs at Europeans with Michael Hutchinson. I just can't see any scenario where they would have wanted to stay in at all. Chris would have felt stifled by the rules, they had made huge financial sacrifices and despite the grant from Nottingham County Council, they were in no way anywhere near as subsidised as the Soviets who, lets face it, didn't really have much of a say on when they retired. The fed did that for them Plus staying in they could have risked losing at some point which could have damaged their earning potential as pros. There was no way they would ever find a greater platform to launch such incredible professional careers as the one they found themselves in after the 1984 season. Why waste 4 years of earning power, unlimited creative freedom and the capacity to still skate at their highest level, just to stay in and hope the judges didn't get bored and dump them?

Thanks for the history. I had no idea that they went back so far! I do remember they placed 5th at Lake Placid '80, so I had assumed they must've competed at an elite level in the 70s.

[lulu]

Thanks to everyone who posted info about T&D's Eleanor's Dream. Shame we never got to see it. As for this: "It ends with her in a crucifix form across his back as he carries her off into the fog. She was right to fear him after all" - no wonder he is called Mr. Void!

I don't think B&B would have retired before 88. They strike me as fighters and they had Tarasova behind them. They wouldn't have given up so easily, IMO. I know that some believe they didn't deserve their titles, but I felt that they were better than K&P from 85-88 because of their stronger choreography. K&P were so dull and generic in that era, and I think after T&D, the skating community wanted ice dance to keep that excitement, though they changed their minds by 1994 and keep pulling back every couple of years when they think it's too over the top. Now, in a scenario where T&D stayed, they would have their interesting champions, and indeed the judges would be free to put K&P above B&B based on their technique. I don't think B&B/Tarasova would have just lied down and taken it though, I think they would've pushed harder. As for K&P developing sooner artistically, I doubt it because Marina was just 18 in 1984. Post-88 was their prime time to begin experimenting. I love K&P but I actually think they were somewhat lucky to have won in 1989 and 1990 with such bland programs (lucky that the Duschenays did not have great basics, not lucky in the sense of politics).

And yes, I agree that A&S would probably pass W&M. I think A&S, like S&N in pairs in 1994, were victims of the judges not wanting the Soviets to sweep. So in this scenario, U&Z stay where they are, unless the Soviet Union looks at Zhulin and sees Dean potential, pushing them to Worlds over A&S.

Good points. I was wondering if perhaps their federation would prematurely retire B&B, if T&D are locked in for the gold and if K&P overtake B&B in terms of both medals and reputation; but that doesn't make too much sense when you look at the example of G&G and V&V. When G&G overtook V&V as the Soviet (and World) number one team in the world, the fed. didn't retire V&V. Why would they? With G&G and V&V they would almost certainly lock up the gold & silver position at Worlds and the Olympics. I can imagine the same line of thinking happening WRT K&P and B&B. They might not be able to beat T&D for the gold, but they would almost certainly lock up the silver and bronze medals in the 85-88 quad. Even if K&P surpassed B&B, I can't imagine any other team in the world managing to overtake B&B for the 3rd spot in the standings.

ITA about K&P and B&B. B&B had fantastic programs between 1985-1988. As much as I love how K&O and V&M have really made Carmen their own, and put their own modern spin on the routine, I think Natalia is the definitive classic Carmen.
With K&P, and I made the same point in the V&V thread, I see them as having a similar career trajectory as G&G. In the 80s, both teams were renowned for their technical excellence, but their choreography (and I know others would disagree on this point) left a lot to be desired. Both teams though, were absolutely amazing as professional skaters, with many signature routines.

I'm glad things worked out the way they did. T&D continued to take ice dance to a new realm-this time as professional skaters. B&B gave us four more years of drama & voids on the ice-and won the OGM, and K&P won the OGM in Albertville and more importantly, developed into wonderful artists, with the phenomenal "Air" FD in 1992.

[caseyedwards]

If they continued to push all the rules to their breaking Point and in reaction the rules got tighter and tighter what happened in lillehamer may have occurred at a worlds in the late 80s or very early 90s and they would have lost or just left because it was stifling them and they couldn't do what they want. I don't think t/d would have lost anything for the few years after their win but maybe later. It's possible that everyone would have started copying and the style could have been taken over by possibly better skaters.

[mustafinabars]

I dont think they would have done all that great. I think they are the best ever probably, but ones peak in amateur skating only lasts so long, and eventually politics would have come into play against them as well. One more Olympics is the max they could have tried to stay, but even that would have been risky and dangerous.