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  1. #1
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    What if T&D had competed from 1984-1994?

    The “what if…” thread on K&O’s retirement had me thinking about T&D and their comeback in 1994. What if instead of coming back, they had stayed eligible for all those years? Would they have built on their incredible success with Bolero, or burned out with an additional 10 years of competing? Could they have won 3 Olympic golds? 4?

    The 1985-88 quad would have been really interesting. B&B really stepped it up in those years. During T&D’s time they had those folksy programs, but they moved on to Carmen, Rachmaninoff, Cabaret, and Polovetsian Dances which are masterpieces, IMO. Still, I don’t think it would be enough to stave off T&D. T&D would probably have the lead in the CD/OSP and in those days it would be difficult to move up after being slotted second. And as we can see from their pro stuff, T&D were still in their creative prime. Bestemianova was such a diva though and it would’ve been a great fight.

    For 1989-1992. K&P were such a great team and I want to say that Air was an unbeatable and perfect FD. But then, the Duschenays were a big challenge to K&P, mainly because of Dean’s choreography. They lacked in the skating skills department, but if T&D had kept those programs for themselves (not so hard to imagine), they probably would have beaten K&P regularly. So we’re potentially looking at T&D winning OGM in 1988 and 1992, and up to 12 World titles (though I believe B&B and K&P would’ve each stolen at least one Worlds).

    By 1993-1994 though I believe T&D would’ve begun to slide (it’s incredibly unlikely they would’ve stayed til then anyway). They were past their prime by then, and even the great skaters who decide to overstay their welcome get dumped eventually like the Protopopovs. I guess in that scenario, K&P would stay on to win in 1994. Duschenays would probably never make the podium at all.

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    Let me just say that I would have absolutely loved to have seen a competition between T&D, K&P and G&P at their primes. It would have to be a bit of time warp, because they all hit their prime at different times, but what a fabulous competition that would be: Bolero v. Air v. Memorial, not to mention all of those fab. CD and ODs.

    ETA: If T&D did compete through 1988, 1992, or even 1994, how would that impacted the programs B&B, K&P or any other team created? Would K&P had gone in a more artistic/dramatic direction even earlier to counteract T&D? What about T&D's programs, would they had continue to stretch the line in terms of creativity/innovation on ice? I'm thinking about D&D's "Mirror Image" program, that according to Dean, the judges at Euros felt too obscure. If T&D with their reputation and skating skills, performed "Mirror Image" would the judges have been more receptive? Or, would T&D after a few more years of stretching the bounds in terms of creativity: performing routines such as Missing, Savage Rites, Mirror Imagine, eventually switch to a more traditional, ballroom style of dance by 1992/1993?
    Last edited by lulu; 12-29-2012 at 03:42 PM.

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    Ice Dance "competitions" would have gotten more boring, but the performances would have been nice to watch.

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    I don't think anyone would have challenged them IF they had kept up the same quality from '84.. K&P were great but as the OP said, if the Duschesnays were sometimes beating them, I don't see them being able to beat T&D.. I also don't think that G&P and U&Z would have challenged them if they had stayed consistently in the amateur ranks. The only reason those two Russian teams were able to beat them in '94 is because T&D had been out of competition for years before '94, allowing the other teams to build up a better reputation and therefore place ahead of them.

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    Ice Dancing was so much about politiks. I'm sure T&D wouldn't have been unbeatable for so long.
    Considering the talented teams would medaled after they retired, I'm happy that they retired in 1984.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Ice Dancing was so much about politiks. I'm sure T&D wouldn't have been unbeatable for so long.
    Considering the talented teams would medaled after they retired, I'm happy that they retired in 1984.
    I dare to disagree with you. I wished they skated/competed longer as much as i liked B/B,K/P and G/P. If they've continued competing they would've been unbeatable.Just imagine them skating Duchesney's Tango,Missing and other programs they choreographed during those 10 years , add the magic spell from their Bolero and ask no more about politiking

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    They would have easily dominated the 84-88 quad. After that I suspect they would start showing the effects of many years of top level amateur competition and training. Anyway I dont think there is any chance they would stay in after 8 years of total dominance, skating isnt like swimming where you can chase Olympic records to motivate you. I was surprised they didnt stay in one more quad though. Bestiamanova & Bukin would have won 0 World titles if that was the case.
    Even if B&B chose to stay past 88 they would have never gotten any backing from the Russian fed. as the number 1 team after being at the global level so long and never having won anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    Ice Dancing was so much about politiks. I'm sure T&D wouldn't have been unbeatable for so long.
    This as well. With COP having been around awhile it seems some forget how political ice dancing used to be. I am sure the Soviet power machine would have grown frustarated with their dominance and cooked something up, be it deducting them for illegal moves like they did in 94, or whatever was neccessary, so actually my original statement they would have easily dominated until 1988 might not even be correct, despite that they are IMO twice the team the ridiculously overrated B&B are (I thought K&P were practically twice the team B&B were from 86-88 but it never showed in the results). I think they realized this and is one reason they also didnt stay past 84, along with reaching a level of perfection and excellence which was almost impossible to surpass again, even for them.

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    Yeah deducting for rule breaking would've probably been an avenue to attack T&D. Kneeling on the ice for 10 seconds at the beginning of Bolero was innovative at the time but I could easily see the judges getting sick of things like that after a couple of years. For a year or two, I can see them getting showered with more accolades and receiving the first straight 6.0s for tech. Then I can imagine the Soviets pushing for reactionary rule changes and Dean constantly having to reinvent the wheel and getting frustrated. I think T&D would've had a lot of political support from NA and the rest of Europe though. Klimova said she often felt like the Duschenays had all of Europe behind them. Since the Soviet Union hadn't collapsed yet, there was no Soviet bloc of judges to push B&B to the top (which actually begs the question of were did they get their political power in pairs/dance in the 70s/80s or where they just that good?).

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    I wonder if T&D would have been somewhat immune to accusations or rule breaking by judges or other federations? Blumberg & Seibert were dinged by at least one of the judges for their Scheherazade FD because the music was one continuous beat, of course, so too was Bolero, but T&D received straight 6.0s from all of the judges.

    In addition, unlike the situation with the Protopopovs, the British fed. didn't have two or three dance teams nipping at the heels of T&D, capable of taking over the spot as the number one team in the world (there was no British ice dance version of Irina Rodnina waiting in the wings). I think the British fed. would have obviously had thrown whatever influence/support fully behind T&D.

    ETA: If T&D had stayed eligible through 1988, would the Soviet Fed. have dumped B&B as their number 1 team during this time period, and thrown the full weight of their influence behind K&P, or would they had lobbied hard behind B&B?


    Thanks for the thread, these what-if scenarios are so much fun.
    Last edited by lulu; 12-29-2012 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Yeah deducting for rule breaking would've probably been an avenue to attack T&D. Kneeling on the ice for 10 seconds at the beginning of Bolero was innovative at the time but I could easily see the judges getting sick of things like that after a couple of years. For a year or two, I can see them getting showered with more accolades and receiving the first straight 6.0s for tech. Then I can imagine the Soviets pushing for reactionary rule changes and Dean constantly having to reinvent the wheel and getting frustrated. I think T&D would've had a lot of political support from NA and the rest of Europe though. Klimova said she often felt like the Duschenays had all of Europe behind them. Since the Soviet Union hadn't collapsed yet, there was no Soviet bloc of judges to push B&B to the top (which actually begs the question of were did they get their political power in pairs/dance in the 70s/80s or where they just that good?).
    Maybe the judges from East European countries such as Czechoslovakia or the DDR though? At least that's what I've learned from watching this movie about John Curry and his skating career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...mczkp_8s#t=90s

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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    I wonder if T&D would have been somewhat immune to accusations or rule breaking by judges or other federations? Blumberg & Seibert were dinged by at least one of the judges for their Scheherazade FD because the music was one continuous beat, of course, so too was Bolero, but T&D received straight 6.0s from all of the judges.

    In addition, unlike the situation with the Protopopovs, the British fed. didn't have two or three dance teams nipping at the heels of T&D, capable of taking over the spot as the number one team in the world (there was no British ice dance version of Irina Rodnina waiting in the wings). I think the British fed. would have obviously had thrown whatever influence/support fully behind T&D.

    ETA: If T&D had stayed eligible through 1988, would the Soviet Fed. have dumped B&B as their number 1 team during this time period, and thrown the full weight of their influence behind K&P, or would they had lobbied hard behind B&B?


    Thanks for the thread, these what-if scenarios are so much fun.

    At the 86 Worlds as it was K&P missed beating B&B for the gold by only .1 from 1 judge in the FD. I believe if T&D were still around and B&B had still not won a major title and were still not challenging T&D at all (eg- even taking judges off them), which they might well not have since as Cherub stated I expect the T&D lovefest would have lasted atleast another year or two, you would definitely have seen K&P beating B&B at those 86 Worlds, and that would be the end of B&B as the Soviet #1 team for good, as it almost was and definitely would have been even without T&D had K&P gotten that extra .1 at those Worlds. Whether K&P could have beaten T&D before 1988 or not, B&B would definitely no longer have been Soviet #1 by that point IMHO.

    I admit I strongly dislike B&B and find them perhaps the most overrated and overdecorated ice dancing team in history however, so I am not the most objective source when it comes to them, but even trying to be fully objective I truly believe what I just wrote.

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    Bestiamanova & Bukin do not have the technical ability to even challenge T&D, regardless how much some might like their avant garde routines (which mostly made me want to puke anyway). That is another reason they would have been dumped for K&P quite quickly if T&D had stuck around another quadrennial. K&P do have the technical ability to compete with T&D, and they could have worked on them revamping and branching out their artistic genuis much sooner than they did with the support of #1 Soviets. Their only drawback was being coached by Dubova who continously gave them generic work below their talent and potential for years.

    At the very least with both T&D and a developing K&P around the World should be safe from the misery of B&Bs long reign on top the World of ice dancing.

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    Even if T & D had stuck around in 1985, Song of India (which they used to win the World Professional Championships) would have become an instant classic like Bolero. It was fantastic seeing them skate it live when they toured Australia that year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Even if T & D had stuck around in 1985, Song of India (which they used to win the World Professional Championships) would have become an instant classic like Bolero. It was fantastic seeing them skate it live when they toured Australia that year.
    ITA and they had so many great Pro programs that would've been even greater competitive programs.

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    IMO, it would have been very risky to continue with competitive skating after Bolero, since the result with perfect sixes couldn't be repeated, and still remains unreached. Of course, they would have been a challenging competition for B/B and K/P, but keep in mind, the upcoming couples were also younger and could adjust to rising demands in competition easier, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    What about T&D's programs, would they had continue to stretch the line in terms of creativity/innovation on ice? I'm thinking about D&D's "Mirror Image" program, that according to Dean, the judges at Euros felt too obscure. If T&D with their reputation and skating skills, performed "Mirror Image" would the judges have been more receptive? Or, would T&D after a few more years of stretching the bounds in terms of creativity: performing routines such as Missing, Savage Rites, Mirror Imagine, eventually switch to a more traditional, ballroom style of dance by 1992/1993?
    Dean created marvellous programs for the Duchesnays. Missing and Elanor's Dream T/D had skated with slightly different choreographies themselves in pro events and shows, but as for Savage Rites and Mirror Image (and, to a lesser extend, West Side Story), the programs were taylored for the Ds. I can absolutely not imagine T/D skating Savage Rites, let alone Mirror Image (their difference in height makes it almost impossible). Reverse lifts would have been difficult to manage for T/D. Their skating might have been cleaner, technically more precise, but some programs wouldn't have fitted them. It always seemd to me that Dean knew exactly which program suited what type of skater, and choreographed accordingly.

    I think (it's all a what-if scenario...) that T/D might have remaind on top for another term - say, until '88 Olympics, and might have beaten B/B. But they wouldn't have reached their own record of Bolero again. A win at the '88 Olys would have meant winning with a program that would inevitably been less recognized than the one they made history with. And I think they wouldn't have beaten K/P.
    Last edited by Shyjosie; 12-30-2012 at 11:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post
    IMO, it would have been very risky to continue with competitive skating after Bolero, since the result with perfect sixes couldn't be repeated, and still remains unreached. Of course, they would have been a challenging competition for B/B and K/P, but keep in mind, the upcoming couples were also younger and could adjust to rising demands in competition easier, I think.
    While I agree with most of what you said, Torvill & Dean are about the same age as Bestiamanova & Bukin, in fact the oldest skater on either team is Bukin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shyjosie View Post
    Dean created marvellous programs for the Duchesnays. Missing and Elanor's Dream T/D had skated with slightly different choreographies themselves in pro events and shows, but as for Savage Rites and Mirror Image (and, to a lesser extend, West Side Story), the programs were taylored for the Ds. I can absolutely not imagine T/D skating Savage Rites, let alone Mirror Image (their difference in height makes it almost impossible).
    I can't imagine T&D (Jayne specifically) doing Savage Rites either, but I agree with other posts that stuff like Song of India would translate well to competition. So then I wonder, does Dean continue to choreograph for his girlfriend while he and Jayne compete? He may have, since the Ds would be no risk to T&D technically, but they would not have gotten his best stuff.

    I posted T&D's missing in the OP, but I didn't know they had done Eleanor Rigby too - does anyone have a video? That program is so underrated, and Paul D was brilliant in it.

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    As I said I cant imagine any scenario T&D would be motivated to compete past 88, win or lose, but in the crazy and unimaginable scenario they were still competing past 88, I:

    1. Could not see Christopher even dating Isabelle Duchensay. His focus would be too much on other things for that to have even transpired, especialy vs a fellow competitor, even one who probably wouldnt have been competitive with him, which leads me to.....

    2. The Duchensays would not have been choreographed by Christopher Dean, and if they were not would have been no more relevant in that era than say Engi & Toth. Probably would have never gotten higher than about 5th in the World with the groundbreaking programs he gave to them which suited their bizarre style of skating and which glossed over their mediocre technical skills perfectly.

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    This hasn't been mentioned but didn't T/D compete in the '77 - '80 quadrennial as well? I think it was quite standard in the 1980s to maximally compete in 2 quadrennials and then retire, especially if you were incredibly successful as they were. With that in mind, I doubt anything at the time would've encouraged them to compete until '88

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