View Poll Results: Would you consider Yu Na Kim best ever with 2nd Olympic Gold

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  • yes

    196 52.69%
  • no

    176 47.31%
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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    No. I feel like all her programs are the same. Sweeping arms, lean, sweeping arms, lean....
    You forgot the "flex foot here, flex foot there, shed a single tear"...
    I guess the hard thing for a lot of people to accept is why God would allow me to go running through their yards, yelling and spinning around.


  2. #122

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    No. One of the best, yes, but the best ever? No. Far less of a resume overall than Henie, Vinson Owen, Witt and Kwan, and somewhat inconsistent at Worlds (the time taken away from competition also hurts her in that respect compared to the 4 ladies I've mentioned).

    That said, an amazing skater who will go down in history for putting her country on the map in the sport.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  3. #123
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    Inconsistent at worlds o.o

    Bronze, Bronze, Gold, Silver, Silver, ...., Gold

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    No. One of the best, yes, but the best ever? No. Far less of a resume overall than Henie, Vinson Owen, Witt and Kwan, and somewhat inconsistent at Worlds (the time taken away from competition also hurts her in that respect compared to the 4 ladies I've mentioned).

    That said, an amazing skater who will go down in history for putting her country on the map in the sport.
    Inconsistent at worlds? Kim has a better win percentage than Kwan...As for Henie, Owen that's a different time.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Inconsistent at worlds? Kim has a better win percentage than Kwan...As for Henie, Owen that's a different time.
    Kim has been to Worlds six times and won twice. Kwan went twelve times and won five titles. Had Kim won three titles, her percentage so far would be better (50% vs. Kwan's 41.67%), but that's not the case. Or are you talking about Kim's entire career so far vs. Kwan's? In that case, it probably is true. One thing that Kim has over Kwan where Worlds is concerned is that she has won at least one phase of competition every year she's entered it (SP: 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013; FS: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013).

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    Kim has been to Worlds six times and won twice. Kwan went twelve times and won five titles. Had Kim won three titles, her percentage so far would be better (50% vs. Kwan's 41.67%), but that's not the case. Or are you talking about Kim's entire career so far vs. Kwan's? In that case, it probably is true. One thing that Kim has over Kwan where Worlds is concerned is that she has won at least one phase of competition every year she's entered it (SP: 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013; FS: 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013).
    Oh when I was thinking the math I was thinking if you include Olympics (and thats if Kim wins the Olympics in Sochi and I do think its an if a lot can happen in a year)

    Because then in major competitions Kim would be 4 out of 8, and Kwan would be 5 out of 14.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Because then in major competitions Kim would be 4 out of 8, and Kwan would be 5 out of 14.
    True.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by falling_dance View Post
    True.
    Personally I think its really difficult because different eras different system. Kim came in at an optimum time when all the top skaters were retiring. However she could have won/medaled by the Olympics and worlds at 15 when Kwan won her first world title. Kwan started out at worlds much younger so that was gong to take time. As for Witt, she grew up in a wait your turn and then once your the champ you can be held up some...

    I think though Yu-na has 3 major tiles in this sport and also has never finished of an international podium. That's ridiculous types of statics. Best ever? I think that's difficult to say. I wouldn't say her skating is perfect, but then again both Witt and Kwan had their weaknesses, i.e Kim has some strengths.

    I must say I always thought it was that Kim went clean for only the second time in her senior career at the Olympics. I love that we are now seeing clean programs from her.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    No. One of the best, yes, but the best ever? No. Far less of a resume overall than Henie, Vinson Owen, Witt and Kwan, and somewhat inconsistent at Worlds (the time taken away from competition also hurts her in that respect compared to the 4 ladies I've mentioned).

    That said, an amazing skater who will go down in history for putting her country on the map in the sport.
    LOL Vinson Owen a better career. On what planet. A skater with 0 World titles and only a single Olympic bronze. Yeah she has 9 U.S titles in a long era where she was the only U.S World medalist, that is nice, Kim could probably win 15 Korean titles if she wanted. As much as I like Michelle, Kim with her 2nd Olympic Gold would have a better career than Michelle too. No skater would choose 5 World titles over 2 Olympic Golds + 2 World titles, and Kim was also more dominant and successful in general at the Grand Prix final and other events.

  10. #130
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    Best of her era? Yes. One of the best ever? Of course. Best ever? Impossible to determine for all of the reasons stated previously.

    I think Yu-Na is amazing and she deserves her place among the greats...but looking through the history of the sport it's too hard to nail down one person as the "best ever". Arguments can be made both for and against each of the greats but I doubt if everyone will come to a consensus about who is the best ever skater of all time in the history of figure skating...

    I definitely think Yu-Na is the best of her generation of skaters and that's pretty much the highest distinction you can get. I think it'd have been better if she continued to compete during these last 3 years b/c it's obvious she would have likely won the last three world championships if she hadn't taken a break. Then again, the fact that she's able to come back after such a long break and dominate like she never left is a testament to her skills.

    She's an amazing skater...definitely one of the best ever.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    LOL Vinson Owen a better career. On what planet. A skater with 0 World titles and only a single Olympic bronze. Yeah she has 9 U.S titles in a long era where she was the only U.S World medalist, that is nice, Kim could probably win 15 Korean titles if she wanted. As much as I like Michelle, Kim with her 2nd Olympic Gold would have a better career than Michelle too. No skater would choose 5 World titles over 2 Olympic Golds + 2 World titles, and Kim was also more dominant and successful in general at the Grand Prix final and other events.
    To me there is more to the ladies I mentioned than Olympic medals, even World medals. Regarding Vinson Owen, remember that she skated both singles and pairs. As for Kwan, she had pretty amazing consistency throughout a career, that like the others kept going and going. Also, she didn't take a major break between major competitions/years. Neither did Witt or Henie. And my biggest criterion was the way they skated, Henie, Kwan, Witt rarely made serious mistakes on the international stage and usually skated clean, unlike Yuna, who has, as bek pointed out, only been clean in her senior career 3 times at the biggest competitions, including the 2010 Olympics and these World Championships. And to be honest with you, I think YuNa is really tied with Mao as the "best of her generation." They are very different, but Mao has the longer record and has some pretty amazing qualities and victories.

    And BTW, it would be a HELL of a lot easier for a lady with even just reasonable skills to win multiple Korean titles than it would be in major skating countries such as the US, Russia, Japan, Canada, etc. Korea is not a powerhouse skating country, it has one amazing skater.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  12. #132
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    Just like you don't say Kwan or Kulik or Yagudin is the best skater ever, you can't say somebody is the best skater ever because the definition of "best" is very subjective. Each of these skaters is one of the best skaters.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    No. I feel like all her programs are the same. Sweeping arms, lean, sweeping arms, lean....
    Considering the fact that David Wilson works on choreography with so many skaters, sometimes it is not always easy to make unique choreo for everyone.
    I would rather consider it a signature of choreographer.
    Personally, I see more reused choreography from Lori Nichol than David Wilson.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    No. I feel like all her programs are the same. Sweeping arms, lean, sweeping arms, lean....
    How could one like Warhol if one’s so turned off by repetition of forms? Subject matter differs, but basic building blocks remain same. Of course, interpretive extension and construction of elements have infinite possibilities. But, alas, seamless execution is so rare.

    To me, each of Yu-Na’s programs has had distinctive attraction dating back to her junior years, including her exhibition programs. She is versatile.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yazmeen View Post
    To me there is more to the ladies I mentioned than Olympic medals, even World medals. Regarding Vinson Owen, remember that she skated both singles and pairs. As for Kwan, she had pretty amazing consistency throughout a career, that like the others kept going and going. Also, she didn't take a major break between major competitions/years. Neither did Witt or Henie. And my biggest criterion was the way they skated, Henie, Kwan, Witt rarely made serious mistakes on the international stage and usually skated clean, unlike Yuna, who has, as bek pointed out, only been clean in her senior career 3 times at the biggest competitions, including the 2010 Olympics and these World Championships. And to be honest with you, I think YuNa is really tied with Mao as the "best of her generation." They are very different, but Mao has the longer record and has some pretty amazing qualities and victories.

    And BTW, it would be a HELL of a lot easier for a lady with even just reasonable skills to win multiple Korean titles than it would be in major skating countries such as the US, Russia, Japan, Canada, etc. Korea is not a powerhouse skating country, it has one amazing skater.
    I am a bigger Mao fan than Kim fan but Kim is pretty far out in front of Mao as best of her generation at the moment. Well you are entitled your opinion of course, but I would totally disagree with it, and I am pretty sure very few would see Mao anywhere close to Kim as "best of the generation" at this point. Mao has failed to medal several times at Worlds, unlike Kim who has medaled in all 8 Olympic or World events she has been, all the Grand Prix finals, heck every event she entered since turning a Senior skater. Combine that with her superior Olympics and Worlds records, and the two arent even really close at this point. Kostner could even pass Mao as 2nd best of the generation arguably if she has a better season next year in fact, especialy if she won a medal at the Olympics, and a Gold at next years Worlds. She already has more World medals than Mao in fact.

    As for making no mistakes Witt downgraded her planned jumps often in major events, both Olympics she won, the 1st and last Worlds she won, messed up her short program at the 86 Worlds. Her only flawless competitions were the 85 and 87 Worlds. This was while planning and attempting far less content than many of her peers and rivals too. Kwan I will give you, but the demands on todays skaters are so insanely high that it is undoubtably harder than ever to skate clean programs, and you see less of them than ever before in all discliplines (even ice dancing!) for a reason. Put these skaters in todays eras and all they are required to do, and I doubt any of them would skate as many clean programs, including even Kwan who never got a shot at COP in her prime, but still was finding the challenge of it in her brief experience something not easy. We are all pretty hard on Chan, but in fairness to him there are less clean competitions from his competitors than ever before too, which while he is majorly held up by judges still is often a big part of his winning competitions with so many mistakes, and that is again due to the demandes on the skaters today.

    Vinson Owen did not skate in an era it was hard to win U.S titles. For something like a 14 year period she was the only American who could even win a World medal of any kind, and even she managed only 2 World medals (neither gold) and a single Olympic bronze. I realize skaters didnt skate every Worlds then and everything, but it is clear even she wasnt on the leading edge at the World level, never mind the skaters she beat at Nationals each year. If Kim had to skate against a field of women who produced 0 World medals in a 14 year span (which is what Owen faced) she would win Nationals every single year too guaranteed, especialy considering Kim herself has never failed to reach a World or Olympic podium or a single senior podium in any apperance. It wouldnt have been any harder than winning Korean Nationals for her really. It is impressive she skated pairs as well, but that was actually very common back then. Herma Szabo even won a string of World title consecutively in both. Not even realistic to do today.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 03-22-2013 at 07:47 PM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtherlore View Post
    How could one like Warhol if one’s so turned off by repetition of forms? Subject matter differs, but basic building blocks remain same. Of course, interpretive extension and construction of elements have infinite possibilities. But, alas, seamless execution is so rare.

    To me, each of Yu-Na’s programs has had distinctive attraction dating back to her junior years, including her exhibition programs. She is versatile.
    I'm not the hugest Yuna uber, but looking back now in retrospect I think Scheherazade and The Lark Ascending are stunningly choreographed. Danse Macabre, Miss Saigon and her Olympic programs are also distinctive.

    It's around Homage to Korea that imo the choreography got a bit generic. With that music and theme he could have done a LOT more. That's not a knock on Yuna or David because honestly, this happens to most skaters at a certain point, which is why they try out different choreographers..
    But a part of it is also that skaters get used to a certain layout of jumps and elements and they repeat it ad nauseum. This has been a problem for awhile now for most skaters where you can predict exactly how they will end every single one of their programs -_- (this also happened to Kwan around 2002)

    I love the cute friendship/mentorship between Yuna and David so I want them to stay together, but he really hasn't offered her anything new for the past two competitive seasons...(except that Michael Buble exhibition which was a surprise and beyond cute). Then maybe again he has something new up his sleeve!

    As for this topic. If Yuna wins a second Olympic gold it'll be undeniable that in terms of achievements, she'll edge out my idol, Kwan. However, in terms of best skater ever besides just medals, it's still impossible to determine. Janet Lynn's actual competitive achievements aren't that great but most agree she's at least top 10 when it comes to greatest ladies skaters ever. It's too subjective if you're not dealing with something technical like medals, and rather comparing pure skating across different eras. Everyone has such different criteria/tastes anyway.
    Last edited by iarispiralllyof; 03-22-2013 at 08:44 PM.

  17. #137

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    We're going to have to agree to disagree here. One other thing that I will especially give Kwan: she skated during an era where ladies skaters didn't leave out jumps they weren't particularly great at (save the triple axel which few could do) to avoid lower placements. The absolute one thing that irritates me with IJS is that skaters like YuNa and Carolina can now leave out the difficult jumps they have trouble with and just do the ones they are comfortable with in strategic combinations or placements to rack up the points. I will always have respect for skaters like and Michelle and Kristi for putting ALL the triples save the axel in their programs and taking the risk of potential mistakes (and most of us remember how much of a nemesis a triple sal was for Kristi). Leaving out triples, especially more than one really takes away from a program for me when you consider they used to be the norm. And let's not even get into the under-rotations and incorrect edges that come with the skaters who followed Kwan and Slutskaya's era...

    And I'm also affected by my opinion that YuNa just really didn't look like she wanted to be at Worlds this year, something was just off for me. I'd much rather watch Janet Lynn fall in Sapporo and get up with a look of peace and joy and keeping going than watch YuNa go through her programs this year with what seemed like minimal expression compared to her Olympic skates.
    "Once you've skated together long enough, and you're really good friends, you can close your eyes, put your hand out and she's right there." Joe Dolkiewicz, 2011 US Novice Pairs Bronze Medalist

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    I'm not the hugest Yuna uber, but looking back now in retrospect I think Scheherazade and The Lark Ascending are stunningly choreographed. Danse Macabre, Miss Saigon and her Olympic programs are also distinctive.

    It's around Homage to Korea that imo the choreography got a bit stale. With that music and theme he could have done a LOT more. That's not a knock on Yuna or David because honestly, this happens to most skaters at a certain point, which is why they try out different choreographers..
    But a part of it is also that skaters get used to a certain format of jumps/elements and they repeat it ad nauseum.
    I love the cute friendship/mentorship between Yuna and David so on one hand I want them to stay together, but on the other he's not offering her anything new for the past two competitive seasons...(except that Michael Buble exhibition which is beyond cute). Then again maybe he has something new up his sleeve!

    As for this topic. If Yuna wins a second Olympic gold it'll be undeniable that in terms of achievements, she'll edge out my idol, Kwan. However, in terms of best skater ever besides just medals, it's still impossible to determine. Janet Lynn's actual competitive achievements aren't that great but most agree she's at least top 10 when it comes to greatest ladies skaters ever. It's too subjective if you're not dealing with something technical like medals, and rather comparing pure skating across different eras. Everyone has such different criteria/tastes anyway.
    I agree. There’s no real objective way to line up the greats, in a sport with a long history like figure skating.

    As for Yu-Na’s programs for Olympic season, in an interview after the WC, David said both of the programs for Yu-Na last season were on a dramatic side, but they might go for something different.

  19. #139
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    ^^I really, really, really, really want her to bring back Homage. I thought the music was very unique, inspiring and uplifting and I liked the choreography. There was something behind that program that really made it stand out. Even with the mistakes, I'd take her 2011 worlds performance over her 100% perfect Les Mis FS. I don't know what it is but I do agree with those who say they felt less connection/emotion/spark/passion/whatever from Yu-Na this season. I think she performed very well but there was nothing exciting about her skating to me this season. Her jumps and speed are phenomenal...but that was the highlight of her program to me. Maybe I'm just sick of Les Mis...IDK.

    But Homage was so lovely and she never got the chance to allow that program to grow and develop. It has masterpiece written all over it if she can deliver it well. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed she goes back to that one next season. I think it'd be a perfect Olympic season program...

  20. #140
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    ^^ I doubt she will recycle that program. Zero possibility IMO.

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