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  1. #281
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    The U.S. gun murder rate is about 20 times the average for all other countries on this chart. That means that Americans are 20 times as likely to be killed by a gun than is someone from another developed country.

    There are reasons that there are web sites designed to help journalists accurately report on statistics
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

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    Connecticut school victims were shot multiple times, medical examiner says: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/15/us/con...ing/index.html
    All of the victims died from gunshot wounds and all were struck more than once, according to H. Wayne Carver II, chief medical examiner for the state of Connecticut. Their deaths have been classified as homicides.

    "I've been at this for a third of a century. My sensibilities may not be the average man, but this probably is the worst I have seen or the worst that I know of any of my colleagues having seen," Carver told reporters.

    He performed seven of the autopsies himself. Carver said the wounds he knew about were caused by a "long weapon." Asked by a reporter whether a rife was the primary weapon, he responded, 'Yes."
    ...

    "The detectives will certainly analyze everything and put a complete picture together of the evidence that they did obtain, and we're hopeful -- we're hopeful -- that it will paint a complete picture as to how and why this entire unfortunate incidence occurred," said Lt. J. Paul Vance, a spokesman for the Connecticut State Police.

    Vance said police are already talking to the one wounded adult at the school, a woman who has not been named.

    "She has been treated and she'll be instrumental in this investigation, as I'm sure you can understand," he said.

    Lanza was found dead next to three guns, a semi-automatic .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle and two pistols made by Glock and Sig Sauer, a law enforcement source told CNN. All belonged to his mother.
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  3. #283
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    http://www.usatoday.com/picture-gall...?csp=fbfanpage

    There are some pictures of the victims. I made it through two before I had to stop. Those kids, I just can't.


    So anyone who disagrees with you, by your statement
    Sorry, but when someone walks into a school and murders 20 children with guns and I see people saying that the solution to this is more guns, then yes, I call that stupid.

  4. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    The Westboro Baptist Church is planning to picket some of the funerals...
    I don't think they've shown up anywhere they've announced they'll be in a long time have they?
    3539 and counting.

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  5. #285
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    Speaking of statistics, I found these

    Number of deaths in the U.S. per year: approximately 2,400,000.
    Number of deaths from accidents in the U.S. per year: 118,021 (exact figure is for 2009)
    Number of deaths from suicide in the U.S. per year: 36,909 (exact figure is for 2009).
    Number of deaths from homicide using a gun in the U.S. in 2007: 12,632

    Number killed in mass shootings is ? per year, per decade

    ETA: 2012 number killed and injured in Mass shootings (from Mother Jones): 135

    number killed and injured in mass shootings in the U.S. in the past 10 years (Mother Jones): 445

    The point being that the number killed in the mass shootings is very small relative to the number of deaths and relative to many other causes of death.

    So the question again is, is the fact that a shooting such as the one that occurred in Newtown so horrific that we must prevent future events like this, even though they are extremely rare and nearly insignificant as a cause of death?
    Last edited by BlueRidge; 12-16-2012 at 01:49 AM.
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  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey View Post
    So, banning assault rifles (which I would be in favor of, since no one outside of police and military have reason in my mind to own them) would not have stopped this crime. And seriously, banning guns in general is not going stop batshit crazy people from doing insane things.
    Except the experience of other countries that have tougher gun laws is that they have a lot less gun deaths than we do. So it may not prevent every single one but it's going to prevent a lot of them.

    I don't understand the line of thought that, if gun control won't stop every gun death ever, it's not worth having. There are other reasons to argue against gun control but I think it's pretty clear that gun control does lessen these sorts of incidents. Therefore, IMO, the reasons not to have gun control have to be more compelling than the crime and death it will prevent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by milanessa View Post
    I don't think they've shown up anywhere they've announced they'll be in a long time have they?
    They planned on picketing the funeral of Christina Taylor-Green (the nine year old killed in the Tucson shooting) but agreed to appear on a talk radio show in exchange for dropping the picket.

    ETA: I know they also talked about picketing the funeral of Whitney Houston and other high profile deceased, but I don't remember when was the last time they actually protested at a funeral.

    I'm reading the ABC Live Updates blog, and this paragraph is just devastating:

    Based on Sandy Hook elementary school directory, all the kids killed in the shooting were in the 1st grade. They were in 2 different 1st grade classes. In one class, almost all of the students were killed – 15 of 16 in the directory. In the other class, taught by Victoria Soto, only some of the kids were killed – 5 of 16 in the directory.
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...hool-shooting/

    President Obama will also meet with the families and first responders, and speak at an interfaith memorial scheduled for Sunday: http://abcnews.go.com/US/connecticut...1#.UM0kEHfZuow

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post

    Sorry, but when someone walks into a school and murders 20 children with guns and I see people saying that the solution to this is more guns, then yes, I call that stupid.
    Nowhere in the post of yours that I quoted did you mention that someone had said that the solution to this is more guns. Nor did I say that. Clarification after the fact is helpful; clarification before the fact would have been moreso. And thanks for the throwaway "sorry" at the beginning; love people who say that without meaning it. Similar to "with all due respect" when they intend to give you none.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey View Post

    There is no evidence that assault rifles were used in this shooting, but 9mm handguns (an assault rifle was found at the scene, but no proof it was used). So, banning assault rifles (which I would be in favor of, since no one outside of police and military have reason in my mind to own them) would not have stopped this crime. And seriously, banning guns in general is not going stop batshit crazy people from doing insane things. When people decide they've had enough and are willing to do mandatory psych evals on everyone school age and up, and take away the civil liberties of anyone who shows tendencies towards psychosis and violence, lock them up before they even act out, then maybe we'll stop such crimes from happening. Oh wait, that's right; that's irrational and impossible.
    Assault rifle was used. Banning assualt weapons is a good start.
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    Well thank you for assuming that I didn't mean sorry. My apologies for not making my post clear. But I will not stop thinking that it is a ridiculous idea to solve gun violence with more guns.

  11. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eden View Post
    Newtown school massacre reaches the headlines all over the world.
    One of the 6 year olds victims, Noah Pozner, had a twin sister who survived because she was in a different class.
    His mom told to the Israeli ynet.news that when she didn't see him coming out of a school she felt that he didn't survive.
    Today Newtown's Jewish community said a special prayer for Noah (who belonged to the Jewish community) and all of the victims of this terrible shooting.
    This is such a tragedy
    RIP!
    !יהי זכרם ברוך
    Thank you for sharing. Noah is the first photo in this gallery :
    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyskates View Post
    http://www.usatoday.com/picture-gall...ctims/1771299/

    There are some pictures of the victims. I made it through two before I had to stop. Those kids, I just can't.
    Noah and some of the other children are profiled in this article: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...231543014.html
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    An amazingly compassionate statement from the father of victim Emilie Parker, who also extended 'love and support' to the family of the shooter: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...m-love-support

    He remembers his daughter:
    “My daughter Emilie would be one of the first ones to be standing and giving support to all the victims because that’s the kind of kid she is,” her father, Robbie Parker said as he fought back tears, telling the world about his “bright, creative and loving” daughter who was one of the 20 young victims in the Newtown, Conn., shooting.

    “She always had something kind to say about anybody,” her father said. ”We find comfort reflecting on the incredible person Emilie was and how many lives she was able to touch.”
    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...ates-dad-says/

    There is also a Facebook fund set up in Emilie's honor: https://www.facebook.com/EmilieParkerFund

    These photos of the victims are so heart-wrenching.

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    Here's the full, eloquent statement by Robbie Parker, father of 6-year-old Emilie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KswYVqUzlYU
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  14. #294
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    I watched his statement. Heartbreaking how he kept saying Emilie is instead of Emilie was...she's still alive to him.
    3539 and counting.

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    Just read that the woman pictured all over the internet yesterday hysterical on her cellphone trying to get info on her sister, is the sister of the first grade teacher who was killed after hiding her class in the closet.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    You did a peds residency. How many 6 and 7 year olds did you see that were beat to death by their parents? Way more than are killed by a random stranger. More each day than died yesterday. Where is your outrage here? How about the 1000s of children this age or younger sexually abused by adults, many of which are sold into a very lucretative sex trade that nobody wants to talk about? This was a tragedy, without a doubt, but if you want to discuss what children shouldn't have to suffer, many, many more are suffering than these 18 children. And nothing is done to stop it.
    So much is being done to stop sex trafficking, by NGOs and international institutions and yes, the government of this country. It's not fixed yet but it's a problem that is being addressed. Child abuse is terrible, is a crime everywhere and is handled by police and social service agencies.

    There is a consensus that these things are wrong and must be stopped. Maybe not enough resources and the problems will always exist to some extent, but you don't have a powerful multi-million dollar lobby defending child abusers and sex traffickers. Only assault weapons get that kind of political protection. That's the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    Speaking of statistics, I found these

    Number of deaths in the U.S. per year: approximately 2,400,000.
    Number of deaths from accidents in the U.S. per year: 118,021 (exact figure is for 2009)
    Number of deaths from suicide in the U.S. per year: 36,909 (exact figure is for 2009).
    Number of deaths from homicide using a gun in the U.S. in 2007: 12,632


    So the question again is, is the fact that a shooting such as the one that occurred in Newtown so horrific that we must prevent future events like this, even though they are extremely rare and nearly insignificant as a cause of death?
    But they're not mutually exclusive in terms of root cause. Our suicide rate is high -- and it's much more successful for men attempting it than women. Because women use pills and men use guns. Our homicide rate reflects gun ownership and usage as well. Gun accidents in the home -- the statistic that a gun in the home is more likely to kill or wound a family member than an intruder has been substantiated for twenty years. (And the killer's mom, according to a family member, had those guns in her home for "protection.")

    So we don't address the gun problem just to stop the mass shootings, although they are a catalyst for political action, but to address all the needless deaths.
    Last edited by PRlady; 12-16-2012 at 03:06 AM.
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  17. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    So the question again is, is the fact that a shooting such as the one that occurred in Newtown so horrific that we must prevent future events like this, even though they are extremely rare and nearly insignificant as a cause of death?
    Rationally speaking, probably not.

    Quote Originally Posted by PRlady View Post
    So we don't address the gun problem just to stop the mass shootings, although they are a catalyst for political action, but to address all the needless deaths.
    And maybe, just maybe, to neutralize the paranoia that runs so rampant in the US, at least a little.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  18. #298

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    I'm feeling a lot of concern for teachers. Not just the teachers in that school, but all over.

    There's constant talk about how to help your children understand this kind of horrific event, but is anyone thinking about what teachers must be feeling?

    I have a friend who is a retired kindergarten teacher, and I keep imagining what she must be feeling.

    I've been near tears for two days now, and I've never been a teacher, never been responsible for other people's children.

    I hope school districts all over the country have someplace for their teachers to express their horror, their grief.

  19. #299

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    Well said PRlady.

    I can't imagine how you must feel having been personally invested, but I was dismayed long before this year at how the gun control discussion following Dunblane and Columbine completely fell off the map following 9/11. So to see an event like this is just especially frustrating. We can't prevent all acts of madness, but we're not even *trying* to do the best we can to decrease the opportunities of any unstable person getting access to guns (and even if the vast majority aren't going to commit massacres, one death is still too many). That's what makes it so hard to take.

    And FWIW I'm just as upset at the Harper government in Canada, I only hope this event stops any further loosening of regulation. Quebec may be insistent on keeping their registry but it'll never be as effective if not nationalized.

  20. #300

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueRidge View Post
    I was addressing the specific thing you said that I quoted, which was the question whether these massacres are increasing in frequency. I was just thinking about the frequency issue and thinking it might be most rational not to be overly concerned about these kinds of shootings because they are infrequent, even if they are increasing, which I'm not sure they are. But then of course we get very upset about them and feel that it is right to be upset and want them to be stopped, so I wondered if that kind of rational thinking was really rational, since human reactions are often not rational but they are significant.
    I don't really understand this.

    If you divide the number of miles Americans drive annually by the number of deaths caused by drunk drivers, you'll find it's extremely unlikely that a person is going to be killed by a drunk driver.

    But I've never heard anyone suggest trying to curb drunk driving is irrational because the odds on getting killed are so low.

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