View Poll Results: Post the Grand Prix Series, does Patrick Chan need a primary technical coach?

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  • Yes

    103 76.30%
  • No

    11 8.15%
  • Undecided. See me after Nationals.

    21 15.56%
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    That made me ill. I hope Patrick's skating does not evolve into something similar to Petrenko's, as Viktor had wonderful field moves before the 90s.
    Wow, there was a wonderful Viktor Petrenko before Galina Z and her daughter, Nina entered the picture! Thanks for that revelation. For goodness sake! Don't tell me, heck, was that the reason Petrenko's choreo and technique slowly began to suffer?!!! Aaargh ... sending out a "hint, hint" to the unmentionable one ...


    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Well, I, at least, doubt she is stupid, and that opinion has nothing to do with Patrick and is based on experience with such people
    You seem to be making a brilliant point here. ITA!


    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I started this thread knowing it was really about Michelle Kwan ...




    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    ...Do you think Plushenko is likely to have a different coach?
    Come on, at this point, of course Plush is his own coach, very similar to Roger Federer! Mishin is more now like the attendants that used to come on stage at the height of James Brown's frenzied but masterful performances, and mop JB's brow and cover him with his kingly robe, which of course was all a strategically planned dramatic ploy to further entice the audience. The King would suddenly throw off the robe, push aside the attendants, grab the microphone and keep on singing and dancing.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 12-12-2012 at 04:34 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I think Proustable did a great job of responding to your post, fsric, as does sk8ingcoach, below.
    My post was to correct Vash01's comment that it was Patrick who decided to leave Krall. I think Patrick was too naive to think that Krall would be satisfied with the direction the coaching arrangement was heading, but from all accounts Patrick didn't leave Krall.

  3. #43
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    ^ Fair enough. So Patrick didn't "leave" Krall, and he was "too naive" to realize that Krall would not accept his desire for a coaching "rearrangement." Amounts to a mutual parting then in my mind.

    And of course, the parting of ways really had nothing to do with Krall "not being happy" with Patrick's desire to "focus more on artistry," as you originally implied in your post #18.

  4. #44
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    I don't know what's the problem you have with my posts, I wasn't defending Patrick nor did I disagree with proustable and sk8ingcoach's posts.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Patrick is and will be just fine.
    Sure, losing a couple of competitions, even losing the worlds, is not life and death situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sk8ingcoach View Post
    Krall did everything for Patrick. She provide a strong structural plan for that was working. Kathy Johnson first started as an off-ice dance instructor which i believe worked well for him. However Kathy Johnson slowly went from off-ice, to on-ice training. That on-ice training went from improving his artistic to attempting to help his jumps by talking about his soul and his chi. Obviously jumps have nothing to do with your soul and your chi and krall knew this. Krall then slowly became more of a secondary coach instead of primary coach which is ridiculous because Krall is clearly the real coach in this situation and johnson is just some stupid obnoxious lady that went to julliard. Krall told Patrick that she needs to be primary coach or she will quit, but patrick wanted johnson.

    I was coaching in Colorado Springs at the time and this is the story i heard

    Patrick needs Krall. Jumps do not work because your chi is aligned. Jumps are about technique and Krall provides that.
    Well, I think Johnson is maybe obnoxious but definitely is not stupid. She is too smart. She has a great people skills. She, a dance instructor who doesn't even know how to skate herself (well, her daughter has skated, if that counts...) could gradually move in closer to the ice and the skaters and their moms, could push Krall away further and further. Finally, tookover the whole coach thing. What a clever lady she is!

    The strange thing is this soul and chi talking couldn't help Patrick's nerves. He has had "stage fright" and is losing confidence he owned so firmly last year.
    Last edited by Eyre; 12-12-2012 at 05:28 AM.

  6. #46
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    ^ Hmmm, but then you seem to be implying that Chan is a pushover and is easy to manipulate. Or, at the least that Kathy Johnson is an "obnoxious, ambitious dance instructor" who has plotted and planned in skating rinks over the years to convince skaters and their moms that she deserves to be a primary coach, and she finally scored a coup with Patrick Chan. How do you know that it wasn't Patrick himself who convinced Kathy to become his primary coach?

    I can't wait for the next installment in the scarily entertaining and ever evolving soap opera/ comedy/ horror flick/ melodrama on and off ice that has become The Patrick Chan Story, as written and created by overwrought fans, over-pumped fed, over-scoring judges, and over-excited sports writers.


    ETA:

    OMG, "stage fright!" Surely you are kidding! Patrick could have fooled me. He doesn't seem scared at all when he takes the ice. BTW, I think "soul and chi talking" is actually designed to help calm our nerves and access our inner beings, which are too f*ing cool and objective to be afraid of anything.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 12-12-2012 at 05:48 AM.

  7. #47

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    I think I've read accounts where Patrick has owned up to being nervous in a comp but it's usually after the fact.
    Crazy about sports!

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    I can't wait for the next installment in the scarily entertaining and ever evolving soap opera/ comedy/ horror flick/ melodrama

    Ah... talking about 'thy own posts'?
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  9. #49
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    Look at how excited Patrick's normal detractors are! Jumping ups and downs. That's another indicator that Patrick's decision was wrong.
    Last edited by Eyre; 12-12-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Come on, at this point, of course Plush is his own coach, very similar to Roger Federer! Mishin is more now like the attendants that used to come on stage at the height of James Brown's frenzied but masterful performances, and mop JB's brow and cover him with his kingly robe, which of course was all a strategically planned dramatic ploy to further entice the audience. The King would suddenly throw off the robe, push aside the attendants, grab the microphone and keep on singing and dancing.
    I was in Pinzolo this summer and saw the training sessions of Mishin for couple of weeks, I can assure you that Plushenko was training with Arthur, Liza and the 10 years olds on Mishin team and was following the same warm up and instructions of the coach, then in the main training Mishin was side by side with him correcting, shouting, talking all the time, every few mins they had a discussion with Kenji and so on, I expect by this time Plushenko can change his schedule and take a day off if he feels like it but in the training Mishin was Mishin. But in Pinzolo he had the same schedule like all.

  11. #51
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    ^ Ha, ha, thanks for setting my JB perceptions re Plushenko straight, senorita! Ah, but do we know what Mishin was shouting about exactly? Mishin to me seems to be an excellent technical coach with very little understanding of artistry. I also think that Plush knows his body so well that he’s fully aware of what he’s capable of doing and how to do it at this point. OTOH, I'm sure it is important and necessary for Plush to have Mishin by his side supporting, admonishing and encouraging him about stuff he’s fully aware of. You can't beat having another set of eyes watching from someone who has trained you from a very young age. Speaking of which, brings us back to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by spikydurian View Post

    Ah... talking about 'thy own posts'?
    Not really. And, it's "thine own," btw. I'm talking about posts from overwrought and over-protective PC fans in this and other threads, but no need to name names. We all know who we are. And looking back on this thread, I think it is obvious there is an outcry among Chan fans that Kathy Johnson is at worse leading "poor, easy to manipulate" Chan astray, and at best she is not the right primary coach for him. All well and good re thinking KJ may not be the best primary coach for Chan, but I don't think that can be proven by Chan's performances so far this season, since he's started seasons under Krall making similar technical errors.

    Moreover, the claims that Krall was "not happy" about Chan wanting to "focus more on artistry," and the negative insinuations that Kathy Johnson is "a clever, obnoxious lady" who "pushed Krall further and further away" from Chan are seriously OTT and befitting a soap opera script, IMHO. I won't even go into the remarks of the poster in another thread who claims to be close to Chan's parents, and who was obsessing over matters involving Chan's personal life, which are none of that poster's or anyone else's business.

    And I find the reference to Patrick having "stage fright," a bit OTT too. Every athlete experiences nerves or they aren't "normal." The key is in learning how to manage one's nerves and still perform to one's best level. Actual "stage fright" or "performance anxiety" can be a more serious condition which if Patrick actually had a severe case of it, he'd be in serious trouble. He wouldn't have been able to make it through warm-ups, much less entire performances! According to Wiki: "Stage fright has numerous manifestations: fluttering or pounding heart, tremor in the hands and legs, sweaty hands, diarrhea, facial nerve tics, dry mouth, and erectile dysfunction."

  12. #52

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    I was thinking about it, and I don't think Patrick realizes that the stall in his artistic development came from the choice to keep the Phantom of the Opera LP for two years. Few realize it because the word "opera" is in the title, but the musical theater version of Phantom of the Opera lacks depth, both musically and emotionally, that is required to inspire artistic depth.

  13. #53

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    I think at this stage it maybe wouldn't hurt if he had a specialised technical coach at least looking him over. But isn't he actually working with someone like that as well? I thought that was mentioned elsewhere. At any rate, Chan is an adult, he's got his big-boy panties on, and now it's time for him to sink or swim by making his own decisions and mistakes. It's part of growing up. *shrugs*

    It certainly hasn't damaged his edges or his movement at any rate, he's still got those stunning deep edges and nice lines.

    Although I'm at the people who think that Christy Krall didn't like a "focus on artistry"? Well shoot, can someone please explain to me what happened to Josh Farris when he went with her and Damon Allen? Cos last time I checked, he's more artistic with Krall than he ever was with Zakrasjek.

  14. #54
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    I think at this stage of the season, it's promising that his 3axel is coming off nicely and he hit both of them at GPF (with huge GOEs to boot). His quads have always been on and off, so hitting 2 out of 3 mid-season is not bad at all.

    He is learning new programs and we all know everything he does is so difficult. It will just take some time for everything to gel. He isn't winning not because he has problems, but because others are closing the PCS gap with technical goodies. In any event, I don't think Canada needs another defending men's champion heading into the Olympics...

  15. #55
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    It seems to me that although he could use some help on the technical side, the majority of his problem is not with know-how, but in confidence. I almost think he needs someone like Kurt Browning who can help him with his nerves, honour his commitment to exploring the artistic side, and call him out when he's getting lax with his technique. Patrick seems to have struggled with finding the right coaching mix ever since his coach, Mr. Colson, passed away. Almost a little lost. Maybe he needs someone like a Mr. Colson to be his advisor to find the right situations that make sense for him.

  16. #56
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    Kurt's advice - (on one of the podcasts) was that Patrick's fans should take a pill, and let him experiment this season. He said he believes that if his current path doesn't work by the end of the season, Patrick will do figure out what is needed, and take the right steps. It may be hard on out nerves, but perhaps we should go along.

  17. #57

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    Kurt's juvenile comments continue to irritate me.

  18. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corianna View Post
    Kurt's advice - (on one of the podcasts) was that Patrick's fans should take a pill, and let him experiment this season. He said he believes that if his current path doesn't work by the end of the season, Patrick will do figure out what is needed, and take the right steps. It may be hard on out nerves, but perhaps we should go along.
    I agree with Kurt. I have already taken a pill to calm my nerves and anxiety.
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    ...

    Although I'm at the people who think that Christy Krall didn't like a "focus on artistry"? Well shoot, can someone please explain to me what happened to Josh Farris when he went with her and Damon Allen? Cos last time I checked, he's more artistic with Krall than he ever was with Zakrasjek.
    Don't most skaters who leave Zakrasjek improve their artistry?

  20. #60
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    ^ Or at the least, in order to further develop their artistry. That's why I think Ryan Bradley would have fared better had he left Tom Z at age 17 or so when RB was evincing some elegance and potential artistry. Ryan stuck with Tom Z throughout his career and never developed stretch and grace nor ever realized his fullest potential presentation-wise. Jeremy Abbott had loads of artistry, but it was in his genes already, and he soared higher artistically when he left Tom Z. Brandon Mroz seems to be lost in the wilderness; even his jumps are no longer working for him. Certainly, Max Aaron might be able to take another step toward improving his presentation, if he at the least got some dance training/coaching, but I guess Kathy Johnson is too busy working with Patrick.

    IMO, Kurt makes some sense, and he's certainly witty, as usual. I really don't see Patrick as lacking "confidence" necessarily. I think the ISU judges really messed with Patrick's head tho' with all those "high scores" when he made mistakes. It makes for a bit of confusion in terms of figuring out what you need to work on if even your "not so best" is considered gold medal worthy to an ad nauseum degree and to the point of audience boos (not so much against Patrick, but against the judges).


    Quote Originally Posted by Eyre View Post
    Look at how excited Patrick's normal detractors are! Jumping ups and downs. That's another indicator that Patrick's decision was wrong.
    Ha, ha! Very "clever" perception, Eyre. Although I'm not "jumping ups and downs," indeed I am glad for Patrick's sake and the sport's sake that the judges are not over-scoring him unduly. It provides Patrick with the opportunity to know where he stands, and to bring it when it counts. While I don't “normally” tend to root for Patrick, I’m not averse to pulling for him when he skates well. Sure he’s not one of my favorite skaters, but I've been more a detractor of some of the marks he's received than I have been of him personally.

    The past over-marking of Chan has come home to roost in the sense that some of Chan's fans (some of whom have always seemed nervous, over-protective and never satisfied) now seem to be "tearing their hair out" because Chan is no longer routinely winning with mistakes. Dai stepped it up in his sp at GPF, but Chan and Dai were somewhat on a par in their fps. Although I feel Dai is still more masterful presentation-wise, Chan has better SS overall, and definitely kudos to Chan for focusing more on artistry this season. IMO, Fernandez still needs to improve his artistry and consistency, and Hanyu is a precocious young skater who should be allowed more time to fully develop. But that probably won’t happen because the sport rewards effortless looking quads and what appears to be good artistry, even if said artistry is still immature and not fully realized in the Little Prince.

    Ultimately, I agree with Kurt that all is not lost. Why not relax and enjoy the journey, Chan fans, instead of harping all the time on his every decision and every loss? Of course detractors, "normal" or otherwise have harped on Patrick's overly high-scoring wins when he hasn't skated well. But when Patrick has skated out of this world, there has been praise and admiration expressed for him and his skating across the board.

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