Davis & White #15: The Polka Connection

[ballettmaus]

I saw ND at the beginning of the season and not again until now; wow, what a difference! I'm not even bothered by the many music cuts anymore. The program is just mesmerizing!

[Bournekraatzfan]

There is so much I'd like to say about the "breather" incident but I think I'll take the path that, in my opinion, Meryl and Charlie would take. Great job to all skaters and congrats to the 4 Continent champs! Well done Meryl and Charlie!

I think it is really sad that people would directly say or imply that V&M just wanted a break. Tessa has struggled with a potentially career ending injury throughout most of her senior career, and this could be related to that. I don't see any reason to assume they would stop the program unless something was really wrong. She looked really upset, and I feel awful for her. again, (((all the injured skaters)))

[circuscandy]

I love this Meryl quote from the interview in Skating:

"What movie title best describes your life

It's a Wonderful Life, Life is Beautiful, or perhaps The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (laughs)"

On another note, did the left strap (at the back) on Meryl's costume break during the FD? It seems to have snapped right in the center. Something is dangling behind her and it's too long and thick to be part of her hair.

[Jessiebanana]

There is so much I'd like to say about the "breather" incident but I think I'll take the path that, in my opinion, Meryl and Charlie would take. Great job to all skaters and congrats to the 4 Continent champs! Well done Meryl and Charlie!

Yeah Tessa's never seemed like a quitter or one to take it easy...not that I can think of a single World level skater that would stop mid program if they didn't deem it necessary .

Haters are what they are. Cramps happen to the best of people. It happened to Alex earlier this year. Things happen, end of story. I would much rather someone stop then risk getting hurt. Obviously too much cramping might be an issue of choreography, like they changed for their latin FD.

Anywho I'm excited to get home and watch all the video. Thanks for all the links!

[TanithandBenFan]

I think there does need to be a penalty for stopping mid-program. It's not fair to the other athletes who fight through adversity (like Charlie and Alex and a host of others last year who couldn't breathe at 4CC) to let the skaters take a break in the middle of the program and resume with no consequences. I hope this will get the ISU talking to inspire some changes.

On a happier note, Meryl and Charlie were FABULOUS! If they skate like that in London, the crowd better go bananas. I will be!!!!

[ballettmaus]

I think there does need to be a penalty for stopping mid-program.

There is. At least, there was. 1.00 deduction for excessive interruption, I think. However, I don't know the exact rules, maybe if it's medically, the deduction doesn't apply.

But it seems that before COP the rules were stricter on that. I remember that it said in the rules that the abandoned/interrupted move wouldn't be judged when repeated. So, V/M could have repeated the lift they abandoned, however, it would not have counted towards the score.

[TanithandBenFan]

There is. At least, there was. 1.00 deduction for excessive interruption, I think. However, I don't know the exact rules, maybe if it's medically, the deduction doesn't apply.

But it seems that before COP the rules were stricter on that. I remember that it said in the rules that the abandoned/interrupted move wouldn't be judged when repeated. So, V/M could have repeated the lift they abandoned, however, it would not have counted towards the score.

V/M didn't receive any deductions. There's no way to know if a skater really has a medical issue (sadly, I think there are some competitors out there who might take advantage of the situation), so I think the deduction should be in place regardless of the reason for the stoppage.

[professordeb]

Meryl Davis is a tiny, fierce warrior! She was the only one of the top four skaters who didn't look like she needed medical after the programs. She amazes me.

This! She did look pretty darned good at the end, didn't she, while poor Charlie looked like he had run at least a marathon if not an Iron Man comp.

[ballettmaus]

V/M didn't receive any deductions. There's no way to know if a skater really has a medical issue (sadly, I think there are some competitors out there who might take advantage of the situation), so I think the deduction should be in place regardless of the reason for the stoppage.

I saw that they didn't have a deduction. The Shibutanis didn't have one either which, I remember, confused me.

I agree, that there's no way of knowing if a skater really has a medical condition, especially with a cramp. And yes, sadly, there may be some who take advantage of that.
I've actually been wondering if a cramp is so different from when a costume breaks and the skaters need to interrupt to fix it. It may be preventable but sometimes fabric just gives out or something happens that makes something rip. That's how things go.
A cramp, as far as I know, is often a sign of insufficent training or lack of fluids or lack of magnesia, which, to me, means it can be prevented as well. But it also happens. (though I would exclude Tessa's situation, as I think, given her medical history, it's different. She cramps much easier and it's probably out of her hands)
In general, I think it's difficult to determine when to apply a deduction for interruption and when not. Maybe it would be easier if the element that was interrupted wasn't counted. That way, there's a punishment but no explicit deduction. Or maybe there should be a mandatory deduction in PCS, however that could work.

[valpadana]

V/M didn't receive any deductions. There's no way to know if a skater really has a medical issue (sadly, I think there are some competitors out there who might take advantage of the situation), so I think the deduction should be in place regardless of the reason for the stoppage.

I am totally agree with you!

[Jessiebanana]

I don't know about that. Stopping mid program is a lot like a fall. Skaters rarely recover to level they were at before the stop and because of this rarity I think judges are pretty biased after. I know I'm looking for more problems or for less fluid skating, especially in dance where there is more artistry and mood. It's like a defacto negative. I think they actually did one of the better jobs at recovering and you saw the score they got. Program just lost all momentum, especially something that builds like Carmen.

If everyone gets this courtesy I don't think it will turn into a strategic stop fest. Judges can unofficially punish people, it's the only positive perk of a judged sport.

[circuscandy]

Doublin'.

[circuscandy]

My worry was others taking advantage of it, definitely. We know perfectly well that Tessa and Scott are far too competitive, driven and well-trained to give up just because (as some people hinted) Meryl and Charlie did well. They believe they are the best in the world. They were leaders after the SD. They didn't make a single mistake before the cramp. There is no reason why they would intentionally stop and throw away the title. They could totally have beaten 112, or got within a half-point of it and won by a slim margin.

I do think that there should be a deduction, regardless. Just to keep anyone from taking advantage of this in the future. You never know in figure skating, right?

I was thinking about precedents in other sports and I did remember that in Irish dance you are allowed a do-over if you have a problem while competing in whatever dance. I mean, you can't restart if you fall, but if there's equipment failure or someone gets in your way (in Irish dance, rivals compete at the same exact time), and I think even if you get injured you can try again. It happened at Worlds last year or the year before and the kid still ended up winning in the end, I believe. I don't know if they'd allow such a thing in other dance competitions, like the Prix de Lausanne or something.

I don't know about that. Stopping mid program is a lot like a fall. Skaters rarely recover to level they were at before the stop and because of this rarity I think judges are pretty biased after. I know I'm looking for more problems or for less fluid skating, especially in dance where there is more artistry and mood. It's like a defacto negative. I think they actually did one of the better jobs at recovering and you saw the score they got. Program just lost all momentum, especially something that builds like Carmen.

If everyone gets this courtesy I don't think it will turn into a strategic stop fest. Judges can unofficially punish people, it's the only positive perk of a judged sport.

That's true, as well, although Tessa and Scott did still average out all 9+ in PCS, even with the break. Both halves, if you removed the break and didn't tell anyone it happened, looked great. Better than in previous international outings.

The Shibs did not fare quite so well when this happened. I think that any team not on such a high level as Tessa and Scott would struggle to still pull a SB with a break. If I were a skater, I would not ever risk it. But crazier things have happened.

[luna_skater]

I can't speak to singles/pairs/dance, but in synchro, the excessive interruption deduction is applied when a skater (or skaters) fall, and takes too long getting back into formation (+10 seconds). With respect to re-starts, if a team has to stop the program due to injury, illness, equipment problems, music problems, safety issues, etc., they may do so, and then have 3 minutes to rectify the problem (i.e., fix the equipment problem, replace the skaters with an alternate, etc.). The team resumes from the point of interruption, and the judges mark from there.

If the rules are similar for s/p/d, perhaps the Referee determined that the point of interruption occurred prior to the lift, which is why it was given a score when they resumed the program. I recall a competition last year where Duhamel/Radford botched a lift entry, then tried it again, and were *not* given a score for it. In V/M's case, it's a fair argument that they never entered/attempted the lift before stopping. Had they attempted the lift then aborted, my guess is that it's likely they would have lost the marks for the lift, and the judges would have begun marking from the subsequent element.

[Jessiebanana]

My worry was others taking advantage of it, definitely. We know perfectly well that Tessa and Scott are far too competitive, driven and well-trained to give up just because (as some people hinted) Meryl and Charlie did well. They believe they are the best in the world. They were leaders after the SD. They didn't make a single mistake before the cramp. There is no reason why they would intentionally stop and throw away the title. They could totally have beaten 112, or got within a half-point of it and won by a slim margin.

I do think that there should be a deduction, regardless. Just to keep anyone from taking advantage of this in the future. You never know in figure skating, right?

I was thinking about precedents in other sports and I did remember that in Irish dance you are allowed a do-over if you have a problem while competing in whatever dance. I mean, you can't restart if you fall, but if there's equipment failure or someone gets in your way (in Irish dance, rivals compete at the same exact time), and I think even if you get injured you can try again. It happened at Worlds last year or the year before and the kid still ended up winning in the end, I believe. I don't know if they'd allow such a thing in other dance competitions, like the Prix de Lausanne or something.

Your right...I guess while I love all the lifts, in dance and in pairs, I get worried about safety. I think it's a lot more likely people will try and fight through it and hurt themselves to avoid the deduction in a close competition. I want to discourage cheating, but I hate to encourage preventible injury. I know skaters all responsible for their own choices, but I sympathize.

Also, I guess I shouldn't jump to conclusions they lost a whole lot of points. I mean they did score better than they did at Nationals, they got a season's best. They just aren't having the steady success (score climbing) that Davis/White are. It has to be really frustrating with Worlds around the corner. This is the time when your program should be pretty much signed and sealed.

[Wyliefan]

I think it is really sad that people would directly say or imply that V&M just wanted a break. Tessa has struggled with a potentially career ending injury throughout most of her senior career, and this could be related to that. I don't see any reason to assume they would stop the program unless something was really wrong. She looked really upset, and I feel awful for her. again, (((all the injured skaters)))

Agreed.

[ballettmaus]

I think it's ridiculous that anyone even assumes V/M could have faked it. They don't have any reason to.

However, lower ranked teams, once they realize that there's no deduction and a cramp is a way to catch a break without being punished... I don't want to believe anyone would do that but there's so much I don't want to believe people do and they still do it :-(

Jessie, there didn't seem to be any bias against V/M. At least not where PCS are concerned, as circuscandy pointed out. And I would think that a high ranked team as V/M is capable of recovering. After all, it's how skaters usually train. Dancers, too. In parts, and it's actually more difficult to skate through a whole program and keep up the artistry because tiredness sets in.

[Jessiebanana]

That's true, as well, although Tessa and Scott did still average out all 9+ in PCS, even with the break. Both halves, if you removed the break and didn't tell anyone it happened, looked great. Better than in previous international outings.

The Shibs did not fare quite so well when this happened. I think that any team not on such a high level as Tessa and Scott would struggle to still pull a SB with a break. If I were a skater, I would not ever risk it. But crazier things have happened.

I think the problem with the Shibs, had less to do with level, and more to do with experience. Alex was absolutely wrecked and devastated, and unlike Tessa, he struggled for it not to effect him.

I think Tessa is really good at blocking all that out, I mean she had to be to skate one of the most serene programs of all time in so much pain.

[mollymgr]

I'm frankly tired of all the analyzing of V/M in this thread. I thought the V/M thread was already doing that. That said, I can't stop anyone and know how to use the ignore function quite well.

In other news, DJ was supporting Team USA

[TanithandBenFan]

In other news, DJ was supporting Team USA

LOL, go DJ!