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  1. #461
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    mmh..seems like a simple matter of personal preference, then, hehe.. walei, i wasn't asking to agree with my feelings, just to express you guys' view.
    what can i say, the circular sequence has lost all the magic, for me. i may sound drastic, but im specifcally thinking of the ending of the original one. it was such a moment, when Scott skated smoothly but passionately around Tessa, deeep edges, perfectly matching the melody of the cellos. seemed like he was that melody. its such a tender moment, especially when Tessa stops and looks ahead with a dreaming glare and he comes to gently take her arm. reminded me of the same move Tessa does in Mahler when they stop and look in the air. perhaps i adore too much this aria, i dunno. btw, that is not the only moment that got lost.
    about the second seq, now they twizzle together at the end exactly like Cappellini and Lanotte. that way, its rather predictable. btw, i didnt and dont want to sound negative towards them, just sorrow because i cant watch it in the same way without missing those special moments. and since it happened with Funny face too.. who made me cry in Finlandia for its immense beauty..but at Worlds, it was so different btw, thank you all for your opinions!

  2. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyross View Post
    mmh..seems like a simple matter of personal preference, then, hehe.. walei, i wasn't asking to agree with my feelings, just to express you guys' view.
    what can i say, the circular sequence has lost all the magic, for me. i may sound drastic, but im specifcally thinking of the ending of the original one. it was such a moment, when Scott skated smoothly but passionately around Tessa, deeep edges, perfectly matching the melody of the cellos. seemed like he was that melody. its such a tender moment, especially when Tessa stops and looks ahead with a dreaming glare and he comes to gently take her arm. reminded me of the same move Tessa does in Mahler when they stop and look in the air. perhaps i adore too much this aria, i dunno. btw, that is not the only moment that got lost.
    about the second seq, now they twizzle together at the end exactly like Cappellini and Lanotte. that way, its rather predictable. btw, i didnt and dont want to sound negative towards them, just sorrow because i cant watch it in the same way without missing those special moments. and since it happened with Funny face too.. who made me cry in Finlandia for its immense beauty..but at Worlds, it was so different btw, thank you all for your opinions!
    To tell the truth, I do miss that moment in the first sequence too, and I don't quite like the changes in the second sequence. Probably I played it down a bit as a reaction against your, in my opinion, exaggerated statements. Because I still can't agree with you about the dance as a whole.

  3. #463
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    I much preferred the original ending in the SD, and I loved the original diagonal SS in "Carmen". However, I think the passion is still there. IMHO, I do feel that the movements in FD at Skate Canada were sharper and their timing was more in sync with music. I forgot to add that I, too missed the end movements of the circular steps in FD. I thought it was beautifully expressive.

  4. #464
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    I never wrote my thoughts about Tessa and Scott's loss at the GP Finale. To tell the truth, when I was watching their skates, and then Meryl and Charlie's skates live, I already had a feeling that Tessa and Scott were going to loose. Not that I didn't like them, or thought that Meryl and Charlie were really that much better, but I had already sort of resigned myself before the Finale that if Tessa and Scott were going to have even a minor unsmoothness, and Meryl and Charlie were not going to make any mistakes, then Tessa and Scott were not going to win this event. Although I still hoped. So, I was a bit disappointed, but not really surprised, except about the quite noticeable difference in scores. Now I can only hope together with all of you that things will be different at 4CC and Worlds - that Tessa and Scott will have even smoother and more impressive skates, and that the judges will be differently inclined there.

  5. #465
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    Ice dance seems to walk the fine line between art and sport, and if I remember correctly, Tessa and Scott have said that they could never choose a side; it is half art and half sport. I see their changes not as an attempt to solely win, but to achieve that balance. After all, skating is a sport, and they must do it well technically even if the art side has to suffer a little. Regardless, their program is still years beyond others' in terms of expression and creativity.

  6. #466
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    I see what you are saying Martyross, their programs are packed with little nuances and I can see that their changes just happened to be on parts where you really enjoy. I had the same feeling, well maybe not as strong as feeling "betrayed", but when they changed Funny Face and took out crazy Audrey I was also somewhat bummed.

  7. #467

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    I wish they will bring original diagonal SS back in FD, but not because they lose magic, but because the original legs moves went with music better. But i must to say the camera work in FD was so bad - i even cant say nothing about middle part of SS, because they started show it from the high point and honestly i cant understand nothing
    They got on 3-4 points more in FD at GPF, then they got at GP events. So nothing matter what we are talikng about this, but they see - we are on right way.
    And i think we asking form them too much. I mean - i feel like they change some moves because of all that porno critics. This could made impression they lost the magic.
    Then they maybe show that moves before twizzles not like it was before (the same moves but not with the same power) - they wish to made taizzles on level 4 with good GOE.
    And i remember Scott said after 2009 WCh they did PF FD easy for Tessas legs. Maybe now they need to made FD easy for them both.
    I was one who wasnt happy with Tracy said them to remove body moves from SS. I think this is a difference between them and others. But i understand T-S - they have so many people arround, who tell them, what to do, they didnt get marks they wish in GP so they belive they need to made this changes.
    But at CoR gala this last SS was
    And i have feeling - at SC we wasnt ready for this FD, thats why we was so impressed. But now we watch it so many times maybe someone now didnt see magic anymore and this is OK.
    As for SD. It was like with last year SD. All season they fight with latin SD, but in Nice it was different people- they were SO fast, smooth. Compare to CoR in SD the were noticable faster. So i hope they will improved more for WCh.
    As for FD, like i said before, they skated easy and faster, than at GP. Some elements look much better - spin were a little fatser, last rotational lift. So the main thing they improved there skating skills.
    And i think the mosy problem for V-M - this FD went to the end so fast, that you coudnt pay attention to all details. When (for example) some others FD was SO long and you have feeling - or, mabe they show much more moves.
    But now for me V-M win is a big surprose. Its sad, but i am ready for there lose at any competition no matter how they will skate.

    Honestly i wish V-M will not go to 4CC. And i think all this change was made by Marina, so i wish T-S will work with Swan in time before Natioanls and WCh.
    Last edited by pani; 12-21-2012 at 09:40 AM.

  8. #468
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    Even though I know that they want to win, I too am saddened by the changed to the footwork sequences as well as the timing of their combo lift. In Skate Canada, it was set perfectly to the music, and since then, it has seemed a few beats too late at both COR and GPF. I'm disappointed that they still aren't getting the levels either. I wonder whether they could have gotten level 4 on the old ones by perfecting the edges instead of learning entirely reused steps. That said, most of the dance is still amazing and one of the only two super interesting FD's this season IMO.

    As for them not winning gold, I'd be less sad with them staying artistic and winning silver than them going less artistic and still getting silver (which could happen). After all, some of the most memorable dances only won silver. I'll Torvill and Dean's "Face the Music" for much longer than I'll remember that annoying rock and roll dance that Grishuk and Platov did in 1994. Also, remember that the Golden Waltz (probably my favorite compulsory) only got second place at worlds.

  9. #469
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    I just opened two windows on youtube and played their Carmen side by side, one from CoR one from GPF (it's really fascinating!). The circular SS changes aren't too noticeable in tone (steps are obviously different) but diagonal SS really changed. CoR version their body language were more wild in interpretation and GPF it felt like a generic SS they've done in the past.

    Other obvious difference is the speed of the whole FD. In GPF, their entire first half up to the straight line lift are ahead of CoR, and they also enter/exit their last rotational lift a good two-three seconds faster ahead of the CoR version. Maybe they want to have more time to setup the last choreo lift? You can see at CoR version, after the choreo lift Scott just fell right into her bosoms () for the ending pose but at GPF Scott has a good two, three seconds to play up his angst and anticipation for the ending pose.

    All in all though, I still think it's exciting but now I much prefer them change back to the CoR diagonal SS with the speed of GPF.
    Last edited by walei; 12-21-2012 at 04:43 PM. Reason: last rotational lift not combo lift

  10. #470
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    That's definitely a good point, Macassar88, but if they stayed artistic and won silver, we'd wonder what could've been if they just made those adjustments. I'm gonna argue that they did improve the level on their second step sequence (which is the one we mourn the loss of). The combo lift timing, though, that's interesting. To me it has the most impact if Tessa hits the position the moment the music cuts out. That highlights the awesome difficulty

    I don't think they would've gotten a level four for the diagonal steps as originally choreographed, even perfect, based on observing the choreography, though.

    Because they were clearly focusing on getting the edges and elements, I do think we'll see the wildness come reassert itself. I do find it noteworthy that they only really wild rendition we've seen was the practice that basically exploded this thread.

  11. #471

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    Thank you, walei! I think last rotation lift timing were perfect at GPF and at CoR they were late/
    You know every season i notice T-S become faster from competition to competition

    I do find it noteworthy that they only really wild rendition we've seen was the practice that basically exploded this thread.
    IMHO this is because its hard to them skate full FD with this power. Honestly in my opinion they didnt skate full FD before SC.

    As for them not winning gold, I'd be less sad with them staying artistic and winning silver than them going less artistic and still getting silver (which could happen).
    But for doing this T-S need to face the fact - they couldnt win gold anymore. Before they understand this - they will try to made change, wich could give them more points.
    Plus if they couldnt skate FD with such easy and power, like in practice, will it made good impression on us?
    But i still cant understand, what is going on, if at CoR in Gala they skated last SS with such speed and power, like they didnt skate exibition number before this.

  12. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proustable View Post
    That's definitely a good point, Macassar88, but if they stayed artistic and won silver, we'd wonder what could've been if they just made those adjustments. I'm gonna argue that they did improve the level on their second step sequence (which is the one we mourn the loss of). The combo lift timing, though, that's interesting. To me it has the most impact if Tessa hits the position the moment the music cuts out. That highlights the awesome difficulty

    I don't think they would've gotten a level four for the diagonal steps as originally choreographed, even perfect, based on observing the choreography, though.

    Because they were clearly focusing on getting the edges and elements, I do think we'll see the wildness come reassert itself. I do find it noteworthy that they only really wild rendition we've seen was the practice that basically exploded this thread.
    Here is the video from Skate Canada: http://youtu.be/PTS5ulu4ae0?t=2m58s
    What I love about the timing here is that Scott takes his hand off of Tessa right with the music. Then they change position when the mood of the music changes.

    GPF: http://youtu.be/NTIYowCzhVA?t=3m
    He gets her into position at the same time in the music that he would have taken his hand off her. Then the music changes while they're still in that position. Also he puts his arm down instead of holding it up which I don't like as much. It also means that they don't have as much time to build up the drama for the next music cut which I miss.

  13. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    Honestly i wish V-M will not go to 4CC. And i think all this change was made by Marina, so i wish T-S will work with Swan in time before Natioanls and WCh.
    I doubt that Swan knows anything about step sequences and what must be done to get the levels. She can only work on body movements during the sequences. So, probably their body movements in the step sequence would again be more expressive after working with Swan, but it would be more difficult for them to get anything higher than level 2 (again). Also, if they made such changes again and didn't got to 4CC, they would have only one competition (Worlds) with new changes which, in my opinion, is not a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by pani View Post
    But i still cant understand, what is going on, if at CoR in Gala they skated last SS with such speed and power, like they didnt skate exibition number before this.
    I think the answer is simple - in the exhibition they didn't have to think about getting levels, so they could skate more freely. It's always so with competitive programs and their exhibition versions - in exhibitions skaters can skate more freely and expressively because they don't have to care about technical elements and levels.
    Last edited by lauravvv; 12-21-2012 at 05:27 PM.

  14. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    I just opened two windows on youtube and played their Carmen side by side, one from CoR one from GPF (it's really fascinating!). The circular SS changes aren't too noticeable in tone (steps are obviously different) but diagonal SS really changed. CoR version their body language were more wild in interpretation and GPF it felt like a generic SS they've done in the past.

    Other obvious difference is the speed of the whole FD. In GPF, their entire first half up to the straight line lift are ahead of CoR, and they also enter/exit their last rotational lift a good two-three seconds faster ahead of the CoR version. Maybe they want to have more time to setup the last choreo lift? You can see at CoR version, after the choreo lift Scott just fell right into her bosoms () for the ending pose but at GPF Scott has a good two, three seconds to play up his angst and anticipation for the ending pose.

    All in all though, I still think it's exciting but now I much prefer them change back to the CoR diagonal SS with the speed of GPF.
    Thanks from me too for doing this and pointing to the changes. I agree with you - I wish they could change the diagonal SS back to how it was if only they could get level 4 with it. But as it seems practically impossible, I doubt they will. They can only make some new changes so that it would look a bit better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    He gets her into position at the same time in the music that he would have taken his hand off her. Then the music changes while they're still in that position. Also he puts his arm down instead of holding it up which I don't like as much. It also means that they don't have as much time to build up the drama for the next music cut which I miss.
    Obviously Tessa didn't get into position quite right at first (she was tilted to one side a bit), so Scott had to support her with his hand a bit longer. I doubt that was intentional.

  15. #475

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    I doubt that Swan knows anything about step sequences and what must be done to get the levels. She can only work on body movements during the sequences. So, probably their body movements in the step sequence would again be more expressive after working with Swan, but it would be more difficult for them to get anything higher than level 2 (again).
    If we look at technical pannel at GP events, where T-S skated, i am not sure GPF technical pannel will give them the same levels, like tech pannele at CoR. I agree with Alexei Gorshkov - tech pannle have too big influence on overall results of competitions. A lot off depend from what tech pannel will be at competitions, but not how teams will skate.
    I read at Vaitsehovskay blog and Wernen conference about one team could leave Canton. And Wrner talked about it could happened after Nationals and 4CC (he talked about D-W). I think its more about journalists imagination, but... V-M have great programs, so why now not to leave Canon and will fo to Shpilband to work on there levels and clean skating? I know, this never will happened, but Swan with good technical coach could be great for V-M.

  16. #476
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    I think that a team leaving Canton is all speculation. And mid year ? Very doubtful. What about the IP ( Intellectual Propery) of Zueva's choreo? Wouldnt she retain ownership etc.

    Maybe after this year. But then again, I dont think it will be them. There are more factors, like Tessa's legs, to consider.

  17. #477
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    Hi! I'm kind of a new fan Just a one simple question - in one fanvid I found the scene, where Tessa is almost crying after Olympic OD (I think so). Can someone give me a link for a full interview? Thanks!

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by lauravvv View Post
    I doubt that Swan knows anything about step sequences and what must be done to get the levels. She can only work on body movements during the sequences. So, probably their body movements in the step sequence would again be more expressive after working with Swan, but it would be more difficult for them to get anything higher than level 2 (again). Also, if they made such changes again and didn't got to 4CC, they would have only one competition (Worlds) with new changes which, in my opinion, is not a good thing.

    I think the answer is simple - in the exhibition they didn't have to think about getting levels, so they could skate more freely. It's always so with competitive programs and their exhibition versions - in exhibitions skaters can skate more freely and expressively because they don't have to care about technical elements and levels.
    And, they aren't as tired in the gala. Their diagonal SS comes at the end of their very demanding program and while they can improve their stamina over a season with a program, they'll still always be tired at that point and that makes it that much harder to do perfectly. I agree about 4CC -- one of the best things they can do with this program is sheer practice, in front of an audience and in front of judges. All the practice at home doesn't give them the (natural) nerves that a competition does, which can change how they perform.

    Quote Originally Posted by CatherineC
    Hi! I'm kind of a new fan Just a one simple question - in one fanvid I found the scene, where Tessa is almost crying after Olympic OD (I think so). Can someone give me a link for a full interview? Thanks!
    This isn't a full interview, but it the clip that gets used -- it was part of a segment on Joannie's mother. The clip is at about 1:24.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2lAMVeijDI

  19. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort View Post
    This isn't a full interview, but it the clip that gets used -- it was part of a segment on Joannie's mother. The clip is at about 1:24.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2lAMVeijDI
    Thank you!

  20. #480

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    I agree about 4CC -- one of the best things they can do with this program is sheer practice, in front of an audience and in front of judges. All the practice at home doesn't give them the (natural) nerves that a competition does, which can change how they perform.
    Yes, but they will not spend so many time for traveling to Japan and could bebetter ready for WCh.
    Linichuck always did this with her skaters and this helped to L-A (for example). Its not like they didnt show programs at all yet.

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