Virtue & Moir # 23 - Dance Me To The End Of Love

[Lissa]

Welcome to the thread, Rainbowkisses! I think I'm going to enjoy your posts a lot.

Lissa, I think I'm in love with you.

awww thanks glad you enjoyed the rant! lol

I adore Scott cause he is honest & blunt, he will always praise D&W when they skate good & is their friend I have no doubt, however I love that he always believes when going into a comp that they should win, he makes no apologies for believing they are they best & he has said several times in the past he knows when they skate their best they should win....I also love that he does not try to cover his annoyance with judging when he feels they have been screwed over.

[bmcg]

The problem with the focus on who is the faster team is that it implies the other team is slow and that isn't the case. A&P were NOT slow skaters but FP&M skated faster. V&M are NOT slow skaters but D&W skate faster. Skating faster doesn't mean you are the better skater but it does blind the judges at times. Chait and Sakhnovsky have a world medal to prove that

Just to be clear as one who discussed the coaching situation. I can recognize a conflict of interest without saying they need to switch coaches because I don't know that I agree with that. But I still can't imagine how you can serve the best interests of both teams at the same time, it just doesn't seem possible. My main concern is how it will affect them mentally as the pressure and tension builds and Krylova voiced the same thing last year. I can't help but wonder if the coming year is now the time to put a little distance between the two.

[sequins]

Just watched CBC's coverage, and I still don't get it. When I saw D/W performance at SA I didn't care for it but thought it might grow on me but it hasn't, I flat out don't like it, as I said it's a 'rerun'. I don't care how fast it is. SD is good though. In fact I am so disappointed outside of a few teams this year with the FD's overall. In a pre-Olympic year I thought we'd see a lot more risk/innovation but so many are 'playing it safe', makes me wonder what next season will bring, and not in a good way. Anyway when Kurt was asked tonight if he thought it would be enough he again made the statement that he gets so lost in the program and the performance/storyline that he doesn't even really care or notice the elements I thought to myself do I really want them to change this to please the judges or do I want them to perform the crap out of what is already a legendary program in the making and be damned the results? Can I live with that? So I ask the question to my fellow V/M fans honestly do you want them to win no matter what they have to do, even if it means altering this program to a point where it's no longer the 'masterpiece' we've come to love or do you truly care more about this program and keeping it the way it is no matter what happens? I decided I'm all for a few more changes but I really don't want this program to lose it's heart and soul. I know V/M will do what they have to do to win, that's what it's about but it must be disheartening and I can totally see them 'playing it safe' next season. Which is a shame, but they must take heart in all the praise and compliments that have been heaped on them by their peers, fans and others. Sometimes that is worth more.

[Golightly]

I want them to skate this program they have lights out. Win or lose. But something tells me that if they skate this program as it is right now to its full potential, they will win.

[zilam98]

Just watched CBC's coverage, and I still don't get it. When I saw D/W performance at SA I didn't care for it but thought it might grow on me but it hasn't, I flat out don't like it, as I said it's a 'rerun'. I don't care how fast it is. SD is good though. In fact I am so disappointed outside of a few teams this year with the FD's overall. In a pre-Olympic year I thought we'd see a lot more risk/innovation but so many are 'playing it safe', makes me wonder what next season will bring, and not in a good way. Anyway when Kurt was asked tonight if he thought it would be enough he again made the statement that he gets so lost in the program and the performance/storyline that he doesn't even really care or notice the elements I thought to myself do I really want them to change this to please the judges or do I want them to perform the crap out of what is already a legendary program in the making and be damned the results? Can I live with that? So I ask the question to my fellow V/M fans honestly do you want them to win no matter what they have to do, even if it means altering this program to a point where it's no longer the 'masterpiece' we've come to love or do you truly care more about this program and keeping it the way it is no matter what happens? I decided I'm all for a few more changes but I really don't want this program to lose it's heart and soul. I know V/M will do what they have to do to win, that's what it's about but it must be disheartening and I can totally see them 'playing it safe' next season. Which is a shame, but they must take heart in all the praise and compliments that have been heaped on them by their peers, fans and others. Sometimes that is worth more.

it's hard, but i'd rather have them keep their artistic commitment this year then go all "sellout" to the judges next year for the olympics. it's not a piss off to the judges, but i have always wanted v/m to stretch their artistry and that seems to be their commitment this season as well. we only have one more season to go with v/m (if they wont go beyond sochi), so i'd rather see them grow to their fullest potential with their artistry as amateurs before they retire

[Fort]

It's an interesting dilemma. For the most part, singles and pairs don't have to change up much each year. That is, the choreography changes, but the elements, once learned, are very often repeated. But in ice dance, though there is absolutely no incentive to do so in terms of how the dance is judged (by judges, not us fans anyway!), dancers are 'expected' to come up with innovative moves every season. As a fan, I really appreciate that. But clearly, it is just as possible for a dance team to garner better scores because a move or steps have been recycled. So, pushing the sport, or playing it safe?

I'd rather them keep the artistic integrity of the program -- which happens to coincide with the technical. This program is amazing, probably my favourite program of theirs and not because it's winning medals. They stayed in the sport to push the limits and I'd rather them not give that up just to win another gold. Personally, I think that regardless of the outcomes of this season, this is a program that will be remembered in figure skating history as a standout.

[aka_gerbil]

I'd rather them keep the artistic integrity of the program -- which happens to coincide with the technical. This program is amazing, probably my favourite program of theirs and not because it's winning medals. They stayed in the sport to push the limits and I'd rather them not give that up just to win another gold. Personally, I think that regardless of the outcomes of this season, this is a program that will be remembered in figure skating history as a standout.

I think you're correct about that. In 20 years, no one will remember D/W's program from this season. Everyone will remember Carmen though.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

Just watched CBC's coverage, and I still don't get it. When I saw D/W performance at SA I didn't care for it but thought it might grow on me but it hasn't, I flat out don't like it, as I said it's a 'rerun'. I don't care how fast it is. SD is good though. In fact I am so disappointed outside of a few teams this year with the FD's overall. In a pre-Olympic year I thought we'd see a lot more risk/innovation but so many are 'playing it safe', makes me wonder what next season will bring, and not in a good way.

....I thought to myself do I really want them to change this to please the judges or do I want them to perform the crap out of what is already a legendary program in the making and be damned the results? Can I live with that? So I ask the question to my fellow V/M fans honestly do you want them to win no matter what they have to do, even if it means altering this program to a point where it's no longer the 'masterpiece' we've come to love or do you truly care more about this program and keeping it the way it is no matter what happens?

........

for your entire post.

sequins, I think I've figured out that the above is why when I watched Skate America, my reaction was that I kind of liked Notre Dame but something was keeping me from really embracing it. It does feel like a watered down version of Samson & Delilah. A not as good sequel.

It reminds me of the Kerr's Lincoln Park FD from the 09/10 season. I recall people saying that it seemed like a weaker version of their Muse FD that many felt was superior.

An interesting and very good question about what we fans of V&M would prefer.

Since Cup of Russia and then seeing D&W's marks at NHK, I've been worried that V&M's brilliant FD to Carmen would suffer the same fate as programs we've seen in the past. It becomes a shadow of what it started out as with all the tinkering that might be done to it in order to please the judges. DelShoes' Carnival in Venice and way before that Torvill & Dean's Face the Music and Dance comes to mind as programs that ended up being re-worked in order to get the marks. In the end both of those programs not only lost what made them great in the first place but to no avail as the placements never improved. In the case of T&D they went from barely winning Europeans to the bronze in Lillehammer. Clearly not what they were looking for.

In the end, I'd love to pose that same question to Tessa and Scott. I love that they first chose Carmen then bought in Jennifer Swan because the original completed version was not was they were looking to do. Clearly V&M want to advance their own skating and through that the sport by creating a program that challenges themselves. Yet at the same time, we know they also want to win as well. That becomes clear when you look at their faces when the marks come up and those marks aren't what they should have been; what we all expected them to be with the improvement in their performance level. Sometimes it is possible to stay true to yourselves while also giving the judges what they want. I'm not sure if that is possible this time around.

Myself? Yeah, I'm one of those who are pessimistic and not very trusting of the judges and not even 100% trusting of Marina at this point. Carmen as is is one of the most brilliant, amazing, intense, creative pieces of choreography I've seen in a long time. To start with I'd like to see V&M fix the two things that were talked about post FD that have been giving them issues. That kick move that looks like a mistake even though it isn't and that lift. Fixing those two issues will not change the overall look, feel and integrity of Carmen.

Aside from that and since I think the fix is in for this season and it won't matter anyway (would love to be proven wrong) I don't want V&M to have to totally rip apart and re-work a FD that is already perfect artistically. I'm not sure Tessa and Scott would be happy in the end themselves if they presented a skeleton of the magnificent FD they started out with. Not even if it helped them win.

I think Carmen should stay as it is except for the kick and the lift. V&M should make those two changes, keep the rest as is and perfect their performance levels even further. Inspite of my giving the judges, USFS and even Marina the side eye it's possible that if they blow the arena away with their performances at 4CC's and Worlds the judges might be forced to reward V&M for it. As it is, the differences between them and D&W this weekend should have been enough for the win; at the very least a win in the FD. If V&M really skate all out while keeping the integrity of their program the divide between them and D&W will be even wider.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

I am sure any coach would gladly take them, even Krylova with all the potential conflicts there.

I have definitely noticed a tone to the interviews where it's less about being friends and more about each couple doing their work and not focusing on the other. It must be a huge mindf*ck for everyone. To be honest at first I was thinking shouldn't D&W be jealous of all the attention Carmen is getting, and when they brought in Alex Wong it felt like "big sister and brother worked with a ballet dancer and we want it too!!!" but obviously, the tide has now gone the other way and it's V&M who must be wondering "did mama give us her best SD?"

I guess I'm being a bit stubborn as I don't really see what the problem is with V&M's Waltz. While perhaps not the destined to be the classic masterpiece that Carmen is, it's still a great piece of choreography in it's own right. Yes, it's different in feel to the upbeat speedy Giselle but that shouldn't be effecting the marks. I've seen posts where people didn't get or understand the Waltz. I don't understand. Inspite of the story behind V&M's SD, at it's heart it's still a lush, difficult, beautifully skated piece. The music is hypnotic and stays in my head for hours after. As much as I like Giselle, I still can't say that about D&W's SD music.

I guess programs like A&P's My Sweet and Tender Beast, D&V's Valse Trieste, V&M's Valse Trieste and even K&P's Waltz which was the model for the Golden Waltz CD probably wouldn't be well received by todays audiences. It's as if the crowds don't understand anything that isn't fast with a huge booming or "happy" piece of music playing in the background.

After my being one of those who has felt that Marina seemed to be favoring D&W before this season, I was happy (understatement) with both of the programs V&M presented at Skate Canada.

the details are slowing them down? really? it is sf terrible that ice dance has become more about speed and less about dance. when i watch ice dance i want to see DETAILED DANCING not speed skating.

AMEN! I'd love to know when speed skating become more important than dance when it comes to ice dancing.

rainbowkisses and gerbil, ITA with the both of you.

Maybe it's just another of those unfortunate periods when the judges have hammered home one set of requirements for years only to pull the rug out from under the skaters who are presenting what used to be considered good icedancing.

I remember how many teams were criticized for being "speed skaters" while lacking good enough basic skating skills. C&S used to get creamed for that (Gallopin' Galit ring a bell?) and when they won their bronze with a slightly more difficult and quickly skated FD it created one of the biggest controversies in the history of icedance.

D&V's FD wasn't as difficult but they were better skaters/icedancers than C&S and it was on this basis that many complained on their behalf. That included many of the icedance teams in the senior division. Fast forward and all those little things that should count are thrown out and the team who is seen as faster across the ice yet lacking in those skating skills are racking up the points and people are defending them.

And in the case of V&M, it's not as if they are better overall skaters with less difficult material. V&M tick off all the boxes so to speak when we think of what the judges used to reward in dance. They have the skating skills, posture, bodyline soft deep knees, edges to die for, connection as well as the difficulty that D&W have. Once they become comfortable with their programs they do all the above with good speed. Once V&M are skating well, they really aren't that much slower than D&W.

Trying to figure out the judging is making me dizzy.

[DORISPULASKI]

AMEN! I'd love to know when speed skating become more important than dance when it comes to ice dancing.

This question is probably rhetorical, but one answer might be Grishuk & Platov, Lillehammer Olympics.

I guess I'm being a bit stubborn as I don't really see what the problem is with V&M's Waltz.

The problem is that a polka short dance is supposed to be a showcase for the Yankee Polka pattern dance. If everyone is calling the program Waltz, there's a problem right there.

[Shayii]

Just watched CBC's coverage, and I still don't get it. When I saw D/W performance at SA I didn't care for it but thought it might grow on me but it hasn't, I flat out don't like it, as I said it's a 'rerun'. I don't care how fast it is. SD is good though. In fact I am so disappointed outside of a few teams this year with the FD's overall. In a pre-Olympic year I thought we'd see a lot more risk/innovation but so many are 'playing it safe', makes me wonder what next season will bring, and not in a good way. Anyway when Kurt was asked tonight if he thought it would be enough he again made the statement that he gets so lost in the program and the performance/storyline that he doesn't even really care or notice the elements I thought to myself do I really want them to change this to please the judges or do I want them to perform the crap out of what is already a legendary program in the making and be damned the results? Can I live with that? So I ask the question to my fellow V/M fans honestly do you want them to win no matter what they have to do, even if it means altering this program to a point where it's no longer the 'masterpiece' we've come to love or do you truly care more about this program and keeping it the way it is no matter what happens? I decided I'm all for a few more changes but I really don't want this program to lose it's heart and soul. I know V/M will do what they have to do to win, that's what it's about but it must be disheartening and I can totally see them 'playing it safe' next season. Which is a shame, but they must take heart in all the praise and compliments that have been heaped on them by their peers, fans and others. Sometimes that is worth more.

Brilliant post!

If I had to choose between Tessa and Scott skating a program that isn't as artistic as Carmen, but would give them the win versus Carmen as is, but they don't win, I'm going to choose the latter option. I'm gonna sound cheesy, but this program makes me feel something, it really does.

My previous post must have been overlooked, but does anybody know when the gala starts.

[Macassar88]

Frankly, White picks up Davis for lifts like she was a piece of luggage. The duo does have remarkable speed, however, though that often renders them a tad sloppy on the edges.

Love this quote from the DiManno article

Also what did Meryl say about Russia?

[Macassar88]

I remember how many teams were criticized for being "speed skaters" while lacking good enough basic skating skills. C&S used to get creamed for that (Gallopin' Galit ring a bell?) and when they won their bronze with a slightly more difficult and quickly skated FD it created one of the biggest controversies in the history of icedance.

D&V's FD wasn't as difficult but they were better skaters/icedancers than C&S and it was on this basis that many complained on their behalf. That included many of the icedance teams in the senior division. Fast forward and all those little things that should count are thrown out and the team who is seen as faster across the ice yet lacking in those skating skills are racking up the points and people are defending them.

And in the case of V&M, it's not as if they are better overall skaters with less difficult material. V&M tick off all the boxes so to speak when we think of what the judges used to reward in dance. They have the skating skills, posture, bodyline soft deep knees, edges to die for, connection as well as the difficulty that D&W have. Once they become comfortable with their programs they do all the above with good speed. Once V&M are skating well, they really aren't that much slower than D&W.

Trying to figure out the judging is making me dizzy.

Maybe Tessa and Scott should push around the ice using their toe picks like Galit Chait and get their gold medals?

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

....The problem is that a polka short dance is supposed to be a showcase for the Yankee Polka pattern dance. If everyone is calling the program Waltz, there's a problem right there.

But V&M are not the only couple who didn't do the entire program to the Polka. P&B do a Can Can with the CD section to the Yankee Polka.

Frankly, if the judges did not want the dancers to use other rhythms along with the Yankee Polka then the rules should have been more strict/direct. This is why I have always felt that if the ISU wanted to do away with the CD then they should have just dropped that part of the competition completely then have the OD done to one rhythm as it was for instance back during the 91/92 season. The prescribed rhythm was Polka; everyone skated a Polka. End of story. None of this mixing rhythms or allowing a choice of rhythms only to have the judges decide they like the OD/SD's that were presented one way over the others.

ETA: Also wanted to add I&K as another couple who only use the Polka for the required CD pattern.

[DORISPULASKI]

Frankly, White picks up Davis for lifts like she was a piece of luggage. The duo does have remarkable speed, however, though that often renders them a tad sloppy on the edges.

Love this quote from the DiManno article

Also what did Meryl say about Russia?

Not much. Russians dominated ice dance for years, AFAIR.
They were interviewed at SkAm in 2011 about being the first US dancers to win Worlds. Meryl did the "if we won, it was because we stood on the shoulders of giants" shtick, giving credit to Punsalan & Swallow, who never medalled, and to Belbin & Agosto who never won, for raising the profile of US dancing as being integral to her & Charlie's win. In the midst of this she referred to the effort of all the North American teams having had problems "breaking the Russian domination of ice dance" or something like that.

It was Igor who got really specific, AFAIR, and the interview was going exactly where US Sports/NBC wanted it to go. They have a weird desire to return to Cold War sportscasting.

[Carmen Ovsiannikov]

Doris, it seems to me that the American networks have never really moved away from keeping the cold war going. At least in figureskating/icedancing. As long as I've been watching since the mid 80's, the interviews and commentary have had that same recurring theme.

IMO while judging descrepancies over the years are partly to blame, the biased NA's vs the eville empire type commentary is another reason. I don't know; I always had the feeling that back during the mid-late 80's (after the retirement of Blumberg/Siebert) through the early 2000's before the U.S. had dancers who were good enough to get back on the podium, the commentators didn't help by suggesting that every time an American didn't move forward it was only due to politicking and shady judging. Also the suggestion that the same teams winning all the time was always wrong and a sure sign of the judging being off didn't help. It's as if the networks/USFS were afraid that more truthful commentary; i.e. the American dance teams just weren't ready yet and that the Canadians/Europeans/Russians were just better for an extended period of time might scare away viewers. Well, in the end the numbers suggest that the viewers aren't sticking around anyway. JMO

[DORISPULASKI]

But V&M are not the only couple who didn't do the entire program to the Polka. P&B do a Can Can with the CD section to the Yankee Polka.

Frankly, if the judges did not want the dancers to use other rhythms along with the Yankee Polka then the rules should have been more strict/direct. This is why I have always felt that if the ISU wanted to do away with the CD then they should have just dropped that part of the competition completely then have the OD done to one rhythm as it was for instance back during the 91/92 season. The prescribed rhythm was Polka; everyone skated a Polka. End of story. None of this mixing rhythms or allowing a choice of rhythms only to have the judges decide they like the OD/SD's that were presented one way over the others.

Indeed, V&M weren't the only ones with non-polka polkas. They were the highest scored of the non-polka polkas. Part of the improved scores of C&L and B&S vs. the competition are that the polka parts in their SDs are actually polkas, one hoedown style and the other ballroom style, and actually an integral highlight of their SD's,

Tessa & Scott's program is not illegal, but like the wangoes of 2011, they are not the judge and rules preferred implementation of a polka SD-if the prescribed character of a dance is polka, then during the polka, the dance should be light, exuberant, effervescent and correct in character to the YP. From the official YP description:

Although the polka is a bouncy dance, the basic principles of stroking and effortless flow must be adhered to; the dance must not look labored, sloppy or somber

V&M do beautifully on effortless flow, not as well on "bouncy" or "not somber" .

Also new language this year makes it even more clear that the polka needs to be an integral part of the short dance, not just an interruption to a waltz:.

Rule 609, paragraph 1.a) provides that guidelines are published annually. For the season 2012/13, the Ice Dance Technical Committee adopted the following guideline.
The concept and choreography must produce the feeling of a unified dance. The Pattern Dance Elements may be skated anywhere in the Short Dance and should be integrated into the composition of the dance so that there should not be the feeling that there are just rhythms put together without thought of how they fit together.

And from ISU 1738

General Requirements for the Short Dance
a) “Short Dance” – is a dance created by an Ice Dance Couple to dance music with designated rhythm(s) and/or theme(s) selected by the Ice Dance Technical Committee annually for the season. The dance must:
i) reflect the character of the selected dance rhythm(s) or theme(s)

[IoanaC]

Indeed, V&M weren't the only ones with non-polka polkas. They were the highest scored of the non-polka polkas. Part of the improved scores of C&L and B&S vs. the competition are that the polka parts in their SDs are actually polkas, one hoedown style and the other ballroom style, and actually an integral highlight of their SD's.

C/L haven't really improved their score, they've been getting 65-66 since the beginning of the season. B&S have improved, but I'd say the reason is their performance was better technically, i.e. they hit more levels.

I don't agree that T&S's polka music is "somber". The beginning of the waltz has sadder tones, but the polka is light and cheerful. I don't think there is such a thing as a "somber polka".

Shayi, the gala begins in about 40 minutes...

[Shayii]

Pani was this the interview you were talking about with Marina: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3766951? It doesn't seem negative to me, in fact she says she thought V/M were better in the free. I think I know what everybody is talking about re: conflict of interest; if I were D/W I would be thinking why the hell is she saying that and vice versa for V/M, but it seems (allegedly) to be working so...

I didn't understand what she meant about switching programs or what not.

Thanks Ioana. For some reason I thought it already began. I don't think I'll be able to stay awake though.

[Bue]

Pani was this the interview you were talking about with Marina: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/show...=1#post3766951? It doesn't seem negative to me, in fact she says she thought V/M were better in the free. I think I know what everybody is talking about re: conflict of interest; if I were D/W I would be thinking why the hell is she saying that and vice versa for V/M, but it seems (allegedly) to be working so...

I didn't understand what she meant about switching programs or what not.

Thanks Ioana. For some reason I thought it already began. I don't think I'll be able to stay awake though.

I didn't understand about the switching programs either. I know many are sceptical of Marina at this point, but I think deep down V/M will always be her team in a way that D/W aren't. I still have that hunch. That's not to say V/M are necessarily getting what they need from Canton though. The whole situation is so fraught.

So I ask the question to my fellow V/M fans honestly do you want them to win no matter what they have to do, even if it means altering this program to a point where it's no longer the 'masterpiece' we've come to love or do you truly care more about this program and keeping it the way it is no matter what happens? I decided I'm all for a few more changes but I really don't want this program to lose it's heart and soul. I know V/M will do what they have to do to win, that's what it's about but it must be disheartening and I can totally see them 'playing it safe' next season. Which is a shame, but they must take heart in all the praise and compliments that have been heaped on them by their peers, fans and others. Sometimes that is worth more.

I don't think we have to choose. It's rare that something is practically unanimous on here, but we all seem to agree that the 'kick thingy' and the choreo lift have got to end up on the scrap heap. Changes there would so improve the overall impression of the program, giving it far more ^sureness^, without sacrificing the artistic vision. As someone else pointed out, yes it's a great lift, but that cannot be the only lift in the whole wide world that can adequately express those final emotions.