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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    When V/M win, other camp cries Skate Canada politicking hard. When D/W win, this camp cries USFSA politicking hard.

    Politicking is expected, except this camp can give solid reasons on why V/W wins when they do(unison, edge work, etc) and other camp can only say they skated well and skated fast. I still have not read a convincing argument anywhere on why D/W won every PCS marks.
    You haven't read a convincing argument because there isn't one. It's a load of crap.

  2. #82

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    You know what I'm not even upset (anymore). I think them losing is a blessing in disguise, I expect great things the second half of the season!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddtpdx View Post
    Didn't they get level 2 previously?
    I think Rafter means that the goal was to get full levels and the new sequence didn't help them there. I miss the old one, it had more attitude, but I like the ending here too.

    Now, I tend not to mention D-W much, but here's something I find puzzling: find me a step they haven't done before. Even last year, Funny Face for all the bad rep it got, still offered something new skating wise. Let's go back to this year: new steps, intricate choreography, new lifts all skated clean vs. a free dance that's basically been performed before. So the thing here is that yes, D-W are very smart and very good at selling steps they can do over and over again and, hey, they do it well. That's not the judges' fault, that's all on the system. If you compare both frees element by element, I can see D-W taking the spin and I am perfectly okay with that. But when you compare the step sequences, the thing here isn't that one is better than the other (which is the truth), the thing is that one team is basically doing the same steps and being rewarded for it because they skate them really well, while the other is still struggling to perform new steps as if they were as old as time, you see? That's not on the judges. We might think this is unfair, that politics are involved, whatever, but it's simple logic: a team skated cleaner than the other. Now, what I do find illogical is the PCS, especially the choreo marks because you would think originality means something there. But I trust my team and I think both programs have more room to grow than those by D-W.

  4. #84
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    I learned my lesson and I'm not panicking until after Worlds. They skated beautifully IMO but I agree as I said after COR (then kinda backtracked) but the "kick" thingy has to go, it's not something I'd miss and it hasn't really been performed smoothly yet at least it always looks 'flawed' to me. The ending I will be devastated if they change it but they gotta do what they gotta do. Again I like and respect D&W but there's just no way in my mind the FD should even be close V&M were on today, and their FD is the one that will be remembered, D&W's to me is just another FD. Samson and Delilah was their best and this just seems like a rerun.

  5. #85
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    The Italian commentators liked it very much again. I am little bit busy with yet more work, but I can translate it tomorrow

  6. #86

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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    Wow. Just wow.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post

    I mean you can only when you look at that and realize they didn't get the highest interpretation marks.

    I know some people like to make little digs that Scott gets annoyed with his scores but it has to be frustrating to know you put that much intensity into your work and it isn't noticed by the nine people who control your fate.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayii View Post
    That's just awesome. Maybe we should send this pic to the judges and write on the back 'What the heck more do you want?'

  10. #90
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    Just watched the SD. I like the old ending better why'd they change it? Please don't tell me that was one of the problems the judges had... I'll throw a massive in just in case.

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    Agree with those who say the last lift needs to go. I also wish there was a way they could speed up the spin....it's looking a little slow.

    I'm looking forward to hearing Tracy and Kurt's comments later today.

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    well apparently in some quarters, all that sexuality in v/m's carmen aint artistic or innovative

  13. #93

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    Well it's a heck of a lot more artistic and innovative than Davis and White's "been there, done that" Notre Dame de Paris.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
    Agree with those who say the last lift needs to go. I also wish there was a way they could speed up the spin....it's looking a little slow.

    I'm looking forward to hearing Tracy and Kurt's comments later today.
    Physics isn't it. Stroking her face etc..while in the camel spin position slows down the rotation versus staying in a tight fixed position. I'd like to see them keep working on that for the time being to see if practice makes perfect because I just love the concept of the spin and her position was she comes out of it where she is slouched over with her arms hanging as if she's exhausted from their lovemaking in the spin.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    well apparently in some quarters, all that sexuality in v/m's carmen aint artistic or innovative
    Pity for them. If one can't see what a great job V&M and their choreographer did bringing a fresh angle to one of the most overused pieces of music in figure skating than I don't really think much of their opinion as they apparently lack the depth needed to appreciate art

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by zilam98 View Post
    well apparently in some quarters, all that sexuality in v/m's carmen aint artistic or innovative
    Interesting (or I could use another word) that the detractors focus on the sexuality as opposed to the modern dance movements...perhaps it's because they can't say that the modern dance movements are not artistic without coming off as moronic (sorry, I really do try to be respectful, but sometimes it's really hard to have a discussion with ***** people).

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    Physics isn't it. Stroking her face etc..while in the camel spin position slows down the rotation versus staying in a tight fixed position. I'd like to see them keep working on that for the time being to see if practice makes perfect because I just love the concept of the spin and her position was she comes out of it where she is slouched over with her arms hanging as if she's exhausted from their lovemaking in the spin.
    I agree. It's also physics that makes the choreo lift difficult to get high GOEs on (and it is pretty apparent that the judges don't take into account the physics of the elements in their GOE scoring). Perhaps the problem is that most judges are not former elite figure skaters. I think this is why so many coaches and former skaters appreciate the qualities that V/M bring more than judges.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddtpdx View Post
    I agree. It's also physics that makes the choreo lift difficult to get high GOEs on (and it is pretty apparent that the judges don't take into account the physics of the elements in their GOE scoring).
    I prefer 6.0 in the sense that judges were basically given the freedom to consider one lift more difficult than another and mark accordingly, instead of it all being called based on levels. A ridiculously difficult lift where the girl does a backflip then sits on the guys face could be considered more difficult and weighted more heavily in the technical mark than a simple rotational lift with the girl in a split, but under CoP, both can be grouped as “level 4” and considered equal.

    This is why I hate CoP ice dance. The way to win is to find the easiest possible level 4 elements and then skate with good speed and flow to get high PCS. Once you find a level 4 lift, you can just repeat it maybe with slight variations every year. Ditto for the level 4 footwork and twizzles. Transitions are actually a negative, because they impede your flow and a difficult entry could cause you to make a mistake on the elements.

    Under 6.0, the complexity of the choreography was supposed to be considered as part of the technical mark in addition to skating skills and speed. That may have given polish, interpretation, creativity, and unison more value in the artistic scores than they have in the program components scores.

    Granted, this is in the "ideal judging" realm of 6.0, which rarely was the case, and the politics were just as bad.

    [If only it were this way for singles skaters – lack of transitions being exalted – that way my boy Plush would’ve won Vancouver! ]

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I prefer 6.0 in the sense that judges were basically given the freedom to consider one lift more difficult than another and mark accordingly, instead of it all being called based on levels. A ridiculously difficult lift where the girl does a backflip then sits on the guys face could be considered more difficult and weighted more heavily in the technical mark than a simple rotational lift with the girl in a split, but under CoP, both can be grouped as “level 4” and considered equal.

    This is why I hate CoP ice dance. The way to win is to find the easiest possible level 4 elements and then skate with good speed and flow to get high PCS. Once you find a level 4 lift, you can just repeat it maybe with slight variations every year. Ditto for the level 4 footwork and twizzles. Transitions are actually a negative, because they impede your flow and a difficult entry could cause you to make a mistake on the elements.

    Under 6.0, the complexity of the choreography was supposed to be considered as part of the technical mark in addition to skating skills and speed. That may have given polish, interpretation, creativity, and unison more value in the artistic scores than they have in the program components scores.

    Granted, this is in the "ideal judging" realm of 6.0, which rarely was the case, and the politics were just as bad.

    [If only it were this way for singles skaters – lack of transitions being exalted – that way my boy Plush would’ve won Vancouver! ]
    Love your post - especially the Plush part, LOL.

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by sequins View Post
    but the "kick" thingy has to go, it's not something I'd miss and it hasn't really been performed smoothly yet at least it always looks 'flawed' to me. The ending I will be devastated if they change it but they gotta do what they gotta do.
    I agree, that "kick" thingy has to go. This was the first time it looked a little smoother and I thought it still looked as if there's a mistake, or an interruption at that point. I'd like to see something that flows better right there.

    I love the ending lift and I hope they keep that. Unlike that "kick" thingy, it does fit perfectly. It just sometimes look like it needs more practice to make it effortless.

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