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  1. #41
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    That choreographed lift, V/M always manage to get a negative GOE somewhere in there and lost almost 0.5 points on TES! That's like half of the difference in TES between them and D/W, just seems so not worth it losing a huge chunk on a meager choreograph lift. I guess they need to change that.

    PCS is just as always.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bue View Post
    Pardon my language... but this sucks balls.
    Maybe they work on showing that more for PCS next time

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by walei View Post
    That choreographed lift, V/M always manage to get a negative GOE somewhere in there and lost almost 0.5 points on TES! That's like half of the difference in TES between them and D/W, just seems so not worth it losing a huge chunk on a meager choreograph lift. I guess they need to change that.

    PCS is just as always.
    I get why they want to keep the lift. Done right it's a stunning and memorable ending. But it just isn't working for them and maybe it's time to acknowledge that? Also, I 've decided that I hate that move where Scott pulls Tessa up and she does that weird leg kick thing on the ice that never works properly. I'm not even sure she did it correctly today? The whole move is sloppy and it makes me nervous. TBH I'm a bit baffled by the reluctance to address these issues.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bue View Post
    I get why they want to keep the lift. Done right it's a stunning and memorable ending. But it just isn't working for them and maybe it's time to acknowledge that? Also, I 've decided that I hate that move where Scott pulls Tessa up and she does that weird leg kick thing on the ice that never works properly. I'm not even sure she did it correctly today? The whole move is sloppy and it makes me nervous. TBH I'm a bit baffled by the reluctance to address these issues.
    they're very competitive, but then i think this year they also want to focus on the artistry of their programs, hence the reluctance. maybe the next olympic season, to make sure they win, they will focus more on the technical aspects of their programs and will change anything that doesnt get level 4 immediately

  5. #45
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    Re: Virtue & Moir # 23 - Dance Me To The End Of Love

    I like the program too much. That lift at the end is important to the story. It's not stubbornness, it's commitment to the artistic integrity of the program. They seem happy with the score, too. Look, we all want them to win, but I want them to skate the hell out of that program more. It will happen, hopefully at Worlds.

  6. #46

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    They changed those gorgeous step sequences and they still got level 3 and 1-2 GOE. Such a shame...

    As much as I absolutely adore the choreo lift, because it's so in the spirit of the story, it may need to go... Isn't it totally embarassing that the best FD in years has to be watered down and made less interesting in order to gain a few points in the battle vs. one of least interesting FDs ever?

    Also, as long as we're on the subject, something to ponder... Choreography scores: 9,75 D/W, 9,61 V/M. NO COMMENT.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golightly View Post
    I like the program too much. That lift at the end is important to the story. It's not stubbornness, it's commitment to the artistic integrity of the program. They seem happy with the score, too. Look, we all want them to win, but I want them to skate the hell out of that program more. It will happen, hopefully at Worlds.
    I certainly understand this, but at the end of the day it is supposed to be a sport. You can't always afford to have 'artistic integrity' AND win. But you're right, they did look happy with the skate, and they always eventually pull it out of the bag.

  8. #48
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    Those marks & D&W beating Carmen with that mediocre FD is not even worth commenting on, all I will say is this...........

    This is the GPF so no biggie, not like it matters if you win this anyway, seems the judges like to give D&W a victory over V&M once a season so this is it, come Worlds IN CANADA, V&M will win, it will look like the biggest joke ever if they skate Carmen brilliantly which they will & the judges give it silver again, there will also be a huge WTF from the skating world if this outcome is repeated at Worlds imo.

  9. #49
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    Oh well, not surprised about the scoring.
    Is there a link up yet?

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    Those marks & D&W beating Carmen with that mediocre FD is not even worth commenting on, all I will say is this...........

    This is the GPF so no biggie, not like it matters if you win this anyway, seems the judges like to give D&W a victory over V&M once a season so this is it, come Worlds IN CANADA, V&M will win, it will look like the biggest joke ever if they skate Carmen brilliantly which they will & the judges give it silver again, there will also be a huge WTF from the skating world if this outcome is repeated at Worlds imo.
    So you say ice dance result already fixed for Worlds 2013. ISU will not like to hear that. They should make rule that who wins most World and Olympic title get all gold titles after that. If it is in rule, it is all good this way there is no question.

  11. #51
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    Looking at the results though, D&W only improved 2 points from their last comp...108 to 110.
    V&M actually improved by over 4 points...104 to 108.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bue View Post
    I certainly understand this, but at the end of the day it is supposed to be a sport. You can't always afford to have 'artistic integrity' AND win. But you're right, they did look happy with the skate, and they always eventually pull it out of the bag.
    kinda like with indie musicians. stick with your art and go hungry, or switch out your music more commercially and go sellout. it's always hard to balance artistry and winning over critics/judges/audiences.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNap View Post
    So you say ice dance result already fixed for Worlds 2013. ISU will not like to hear that. They should make rule that who wins most World and Olympic title get all gold titles after that. If it is in rule, it is all good this way there is no question.


    No bascially what I am saying is there is NO way that program by D&W is better than Carmen. End of story, Carmen is so far ahead of that ND program it's laughable but they continue to get WAY over scored for some mysterious reason, I think it's time V&M & their team checked to see what is going on cause I have a feeling the American Skating Federation is making a huge push for F&W this season, something fishy is going on....I have watched skating long enough to see this...

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    Those marks & D&W beating Carmen with that mediocre FD is not even worth commenting on, all I will say is this...........

    This is the GPF so no biggie, not like it matters if you win this anyway, seems the judges like to give D&W a victory over V&M once a season so this is it, come Worlds IN CANADA, V&M will win, it will look like the biggest joke ever if they skate Carmen brilliantly which they will & the judges give it silver again, there will also be a huge WTF from the skating world if this outcome is repeated at Worlds imo.
    I don't think any of that is helpful or accurate.

    I think Carmen is a far superior and much more challenging FD than Notre Dame BUT D&W typically skate their programs near their potential at the start of the season while other teams take longer as they have the challenge of ironing out kinks and learning new elements. So while it's disappointing to see some of those scores in PCS (choreography and interpretation being the main sticking points for me) I don't think it's indicative of what we will see after the New Year.

    I'm reluctant to say panic now and change things BUT I do think it's time to revisit that final choreographic lift because while incredibly difficult and impressive I think it's not working for them and affecting the final impression the program gives the judges. If you look at the GOE awarded V&M actually get on average more points for their lifts than D&W do, that lift that has some clutching their pearls scored more GOE for them then the recycled DF + straightline. What the judges don't seem to like is the choreographic lift at all. V&M get more GOE than any other team at GPF for their lifts EXCEPT they get the second lowest GOE of the field for the choreographic lift which gives a big point advantage to D&W. I think having that lift as the last impression, a lift the judges don't seem to like, is affecting the overall impression. V&M have the best lifts in the field and I have no doubt they can come up with something else to fit their artistic vision but to make for a more dynamic ending. And that more dynamic ending should be reflected in the PCS. I'm not talking about the final pose, that should stay, just find another way to do that choreographic lift.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    No bascially what I am saying is there is NO way that program by D&W is better than Carmen. End of story, Carmen is so far ahead of that ND program it's laughable but they continue to get WAY over scored for some mysterious reason, I think it's time V&M & their team checked to see what is going on cause I have a feeling the American Skating Federation is making a huge push for F&W this season, something fishy is going on....I have watched skating long enough to see this...
    so in other ways you are saying this is still fixed. no problem end of story. This way V-M can win if they become spectator at home town because their Carmen is so hot Scott can be with friends and family in stadium and watch all other skaters loose.
    who is this new team americans pushing for i never hear of them this is very strange. americian federation not have money to do anything. putin can help because he love ice dance

  16. #56
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  17. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    I'm reluctant to say panic now and change things BUT I do think it's time to revisit that final choreographic lift because while incredibly difficult and impressive I think it's not working for them and affecting the final impression the program gives the judges. If you look at the GOE awarded V&M actually get on average more points for their lifts than D&W do, that lift that has some clutching their pearls scored more GOE for them then the recycled DF + straightline. What the judges don't seem to like is the choreographic lift at all. V&M get more GOE than any other team at GPF for their lifts EXCEPT they get the second lowest GOE of the field for the choreographic lift which gives a big point advantage to D&W. I think having that lift as the last impression, a lift the judges don't seem to like, is affecting the overall impression. V&M have the best lifts in the field and I have no doubt they can come up with something else to fit their artistic vision but to make for a more dynamic ending. And that more dynamic ending should be reflected in the PCS. I'm not talking about the final pose, that should stay, just find another way to do that choreographic lift.
    Yes, finally they get rewarded for that lift! Well, except one judge from a different planet who gave them GOE +1.

    My heart bleeds for the choreographic lift, but I agree with you.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lissa View Post
    No bascially what I am saying is there is NO way that program by D&W is better than Carmen. End of story, Carmen is so far ahead of that ND program it's laughable but they continue to get WAY over scored for some mysterious reason, I think it's time V&M & their team checked to see what is going on cause I have a feeling the American Skating Federation is making a huge push for F&W this season, something fishy is going on....I have watched skating long enough to see this...
    I just saw the scores.

    I know it's not a popular opinion by a long shot, but I have to say I'm with you Lissa when it comes to what you're thinking on this. I've watched this sport a long time as well and have the same feelings on the scoring right now. I think what we're seeing is all political, decided long ago, and has little to nothing to do with the actual skating.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcg View Post
    I don't think any of that is helpful or accurate.

    I think Carmen is a far superior and much more challenging FD than Notre Dame BUT D&W typically skate their programs near their potential at the start of the season while other teams take longer as they have the challenge of ironing out kinks and learning new elements. So while it's disappointing to see some of those scores in PCS (choreography and interpretation being the main sticking points for me) I don't think it's indicative of what we will see after the New Year.

    I'm reluctant to say panic now and change things BUT I do think it's time to revisit that final choreographic lift because while incredibly difficult and impressive I think it's not working for them and affecting the final impression the program gives the judges. If you look at the GOE awarded V&M actually get on average more points for their lifts than D&W do, that lift that has some clutching their pearls scored more GOE for them then the recycled DF + straightline. What the judges don't seem to like is the choreographic lift at all. V&M get more GOE than any other team at GPF for their lifts EXCEPT they get the second lowest GOE of the field for the choreographic lift which gives a big point advantage to D&W. I think having that lift as the last impression, a lift the judges don't seem to like, is affecting the overall impression. V&M have the best lifts in the field and I have no doubt they can come up with something else to fit their artistic vision but to make for a more dynamic ending. And that more dynamic ending should be reflected in the PCS. I'm not talking about the final pose, that should stay, just find another way to do that choreographic lift.
    I hated to see the diagonal step sequence watered down, that got them a level 3 and still low GOE. They are compromising already and I admit that I don't like it. I understand your concern with the choreo lift, but they HAVE performed it well in practice and that's not where they are losing most of their points. It's baffling really. The twizzles, for example, those are amazing. Why isn't the rotational lift getting higher GOE? So, yeah, the judges do not like as much as we do. By the way, how amazing was that Russian audience? Truly great how they reacted after each element, especially the twizzles and the lifts. Another thing, (sorry for my very scattered thoughts) that kick Tessa does was well performed today, I think someone asked. It was clean and precise. I like it. I wish they didn't made any more changes, I wish they got some of those steps back, but like you guys said: this is a sport and well, champions adjust. I just want them to skate this program to their its full potential, win or lose, I think that's all I care about: that this program is remembered as one of the best ever.

    As for politics being involved, I am not too sure? Last year was the same, if not worse. A question, though, to those of you who are more familiar with the new system (V-M are the only team I followed after COP), do judges in the Grand Prix series get to judge 4CC and Worlds? Do they need extra qualifications?
    Last edited by Golightly; 12-08-2012 at 04:00 PM.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNap View Post
    so in other ways you are saying this is still fixed. no problem end of story. This way V-M can win if they become spectator at home town because their Carmen is so hot Scott can be with friends and family in stadium and watch all other skaters loose.
    who is this new team americans pushing for i never hear of them this is very strange. americian federation not have money to do anything. putin can help because he love ice dance
    I like you, but you are recycling jokes now. I don't like that. A real troll strives for more and always reinvents himself. I know you can do it. Also, too much of a good thing gets boring real fast. Trolls know when to make an appearance too.

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