Hospital Nurse Who Took Kate Hoax Call Found Dead

[Angelskates]

The purpose of a practical joke is to gets laughs over someone's fear, embarrassment or humiliation, so anyone who's ever played one is a bully.

People embarrass each other in fun all the time - parents showing embarrassing photos at a 21st birthday party etc. They're not bullies, even though their intent is to embarrass. I don't like these sort of things either, personally, but I know plenty of people who, once they got over the initial embarrassment, also thought it was funny.

[DAngel]

Also, according to the station, the hospital were contacted by the station 5 times to discuss whether or not they had any objection to putting the call on air. The hospital never called them back. It seems the hospital had ample opportunity to end it all before it went public and prevent it going on air, which is new information.

No reply equals consent?

[orbitz]

No reply equals consent?

Sure, why not? It might as well be.

[jeffisjeff]

Doing anything that is intended to humiliate or embarrass someone else.

I've been told that school districts often have a "more than once" requirement when defining bullying.

[Angelskates]

I've been told that school districts often have a "more than once" requirement when defining bullying.

It's also the dictionary definition (not more than once, but habitual).

[duane]

People embarrass each other in fun all the time - parents showing embarrassing photos at a 21st birthday party etc. They're not bullies, even though their intent is to embarrass. I don't like these sort of things either, personally, but I know plenty of people who, once they got over the initial embarrassment, also thought it was funny.

Exactly. If "doing anything that is intended to embarrass or humiliate someone" is bullying (which I don't agree with), then nearly everyone is guilty is bullying.

[Garden Kitty]

It's also the dictionary definition (not more than once, but habitual).

At least in Merriam-Webster, "habitual" is in the definition of bully as a noun, not in the definition of the verb "bully". American Heritage makes the same distinction.

I don't really think that's the righ word to describe what the dj's did, but at least these dictionary definitions don't require habitual behavior for an act to be bullying, but do for a person to be characterized as a bully.

[bek]

People embarrass each other in fun all the time - parents showing embarrassing photos at a 21st birthday party etc. They're not bullies, even though their intent is to embarrass. I don't like these sort of things either, personally, but I know plenty of people who, once they got over the initial embarrassment, also thought it was funny.

And how much of this is broadcasted in front of a worldwide audience? One can mention to that pranking your friend-who you know. Well you also tend to know what that person can or cannot handle. Same with your child.

These DJs didn't know the nurses what type of pranks they could or couldn't handle. Not to mention their were real world consquences to these nursers for this prank.

So I'm sorry there's a big difference between parents showing embarrassing pictures and this.

And when does it become bullying-well I think that depends on the person who is being pranked/bullied.

[MacMadame]

It's also the dictionary definition (not more than once, but habitual).

All the definitions I read included words like intimidate. Here's an example:

Use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.

I don't see anything like this happening here. The DJs didn't intimidate or force anyone. As far as I can tell, they didn't even cajole.

I hope we're not going to label everything we don't like as bullying now. I think it minimizes real bullying to use it describe things like this.

[duane]

I think if people want to "blame" anyone for this woman's death, blame the Indian culture where it is ingrained in little girls' head from day one that they are not to bring "shame" to the family. Clearly she erred in transferring the call, and though the hospital said she was not going to be fired, surely some kind of action (a verbal reprimand? Threat of being demoted or transferred?) was discussed. Perhaps this "shame" caused her to believe suicide was the only option.

But again, it's not even yet official that she committed suicide.

[Cachoo]

All the definitions I read included words like intimidate. Here's an example:



I don't see anything like this happening here. The DJs didn't intimidate or force anyone. As far as I can tell, they didn't even cajole.

I hope we're not going to label everything we don't like as bullying now. I think it minimizes real bullying to use it describe things like this.

I think it was thoughtless as Kate was sick and did not need to be bothered with this sort of nonsense and that it put the two nurses in a bad position. But I don't believe these two people ever thought they were hurting anyone when they pulled this prank. Conversely one of my mother's friends said her daughter was given flowers and asked to prom and then stood up. She was not popular and this was done as a "prank." It was intentionally cruel. I think there's a difference.

[Japanfan]

I think if people want to "blame" anyone for this woman's death, blame the Indian culture where it is ingrained in little girls' head from day one that they are not to bring "shame" to the family. Clearly she erred in transferring the call, and though the hospital said she was not going to be fired, surely some kind of action (a verbal reprimand? Threat of being demoted or transferred?) was discussed. Perhaps this "shame" caused her to believe suicide was the only option.

But again, it's not even yet official that she committed suicide.

I find it difficult to believe that this event alone would cause a person to commit suicide. It seems to me a person would have to be depressed or suicidal for this to push him or her over the edge. She made an honest mistake.

[Angelskates]

I find it difficult to believe that this event alone would cause a person to commit suicide. It seems to me a person would have to be depressed or suicidal for this to push him or her over the edge. She made an honest mistake.

And it's interesting that her brother is the one who said she died in shame. How did he know she thought that what she did was shameful? He doesn't ever say himself that he disagrees with that. Maybe he's the one who thinks what she did was shameful, and she knew that he'd think that way. That's not dying in shame, that's dying in fear. We'll never know the reason she decided to kill herself, but I don't think this was the sole cause.

It's really disappointing that this hospital has directed all of the outrage outwards, without looking inwards at what they could have done, and now can do, to help prevent things like this happening again. I hope this comes soon.

[*Jen*]

Doing anything that is intended to humiliate or embarrass someone else.

Is this sort of thing common in Australia?

Yes. It's one of the things I totally despise about it and one of the (many) reasons I left. It would be easier to miss my birth place if it wasn't such a constant source of embarrassment... But it isn't considered bullying, which is why it happens so often.

At least in Merriam-Webster, "habitual" is in the definition of bully as a noun, not in the definition of the verb "bully". American Heritage makes the same distinction.

I don't really think that's the righ word to describe what the dj's did, but at least these dictionary definitions don't require habitual behavior for an act to be bullying, but do for a person to be characterized as a bully.

Oh dear. We're on to semantics

We're never going to agree. We all have different points of view, and if we pull up Australian and British dictionaries we may well get other definitions of bullying again.

Speaking of though - the reaction of twitter users and the Daily Mail to the interview. They were being criticised for being silent, now criticised for speaking. Criticised to giving an interview and not a press conference, for crying, and even thought it was clearly stated they weren't being paid, somehow that rumour is going around too?

[bek]

I find it difficult to believe that this event alone would cause a person to commit suicide. It seems to me a person would have to be depressed or suicidal for this to push him or her over the edge. She made an honest mistake.

But this type of suicide DOES happen in India. Not every society feels the same way. If you are from a society that actively encourages suicide when shame has been brought upon your employer, family etc... Well.. And Angelskates the fact that her brother said it this way suggests this is the case.

Not every society is like India with hahahaha! I fooled you. Some societies hold saving face and keeping honor to be the most important things.

Apparently she was very devout Catholic. So unfortunately it may be culture winning out over religion...

[antmanb]

But this type of suicide DOES happen in India. Not every society feels the same way. If you are from a society that actively encourages suicide when shame has been brought upon your employer, family etc... Well..

Does it? Do you have any sources or information to back this up? Of the many different cultures and discussions of suicide, bringing shame to your employer is not one that i'd ordinarily associate with Indian culture.

[Garden Kitty]

Oh dear. We're on to semantics

You may consider it semantics but I do think it's important that when there are cases of obvious bullying (like Cachoo's prom example or the recent example in the news about the school deliberately voting an unpopular girl onto prom court as a joke), the situation isn't minimized because it doesn't happen to the victim repeatedly.

However, as I indicated, I don't consider this bullying of the nurses. I think it's more of a thoughtless indifference to others, which is what I think most practical jokes are. The joker doesn't really care what the impact is on the brunt of the joke;. I'm quite certain the DJ's didn't expect any sort of serious consequences but I doubt they thought about whether the people answering the phone would look foolish at their jobs.

[Angelskates]

You may consider it semantics but I do think it's important that when there are cases of obvious bullying (like Cachoo's prom example or the recent example in the news about the school deliberately voting an unpopular girl onto prom court as a joke), the situation isn't minimized because it doesn't happen to the victim repeatedly.

However, as I indicated, I don't consider this bullying of the nurses. I think it's more of a thoughtless indifference to others, which is what I think most practical jokes are. The joker doesn't really care what the impact is on the brunt of the joke;. I'm quite certain the DJ's didn't expect any sort of serious consequences but I doubt they thought about whether the people answering the phone would look foolish at their jobs.

Here are some other, non-US, definitions, since this occurred in Australia and the UK:

NSW Public Schools: http://www.schools.nsw.edu.au/studen...tion/index.php

KidSpot Australia, who use the National Centre Against Bullying definition: http://www.kidspot.com.au/schoolzone...95+article.htm (have a look at what they emphasise bullying isn't as well)

Definition of workplace bullying from the Australian Human Rights Commission: http://humanrights.gov.au/info_for_e...workplace.html

Act Against Bullying (UK): http://www.actagainstbullying.org/ad..._to_parent.htm

Health and Safety Exectutive (UK): http://www.hse.gov.uk/stress/further...ndividuals.htm

All use words like persistent, repeated, over time.

[*Jen*]

You may consider it semantics but I do think it's important that when there are cases of obvious bullying (like Cachoo's prom example or the recent example in the news about the school deliberately voting an unpopular girl onto prom court as a joke), the situation isn't minimized because it doesn't happen to the victim repeatedly.

I didn't say it was. I didn't comment at all on it, apart from to say that the definitions will vary according to the source. My point was that the definitions may not be helpful, not that they minimise the situation in any way.

But this type of suicide DOES happen in India. Not every society feels the same way. If you are from a society that actively encourages suicide when shame has been brought upon your employer, family etc... Well.. And Angelskates the fact that her brother said it this way suggests this is the case.

This came up at my work yesterday. The point is, not every Indian nurse in that position would have reacted by committing suicide. Culture may be an influence, but it's not the overwhelming reason.

Again, it comes back to her mental state prior to this. This may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but take it from someone who lost a friend to suicide: it was not the only reason. People can be good at hiding their feelings. A close friend lost a friend to suicide last week, and it came as a total shock to absolutely everyone, including his partner and family. They saw him every day. You can't always see it coming. It's just tragic.

In other news, the station is donating money to the family

[Garden Kitty]

I was merely responding to your original post that indicated "habitual" was part of "the dictionary definition" of bullying. As your post indicates, there are a variety of definitions applied for different purposes and the writer in the Act Against Bullying link actually mentions that "There are obviously as many definitions as there are opinions" and then proceeds to list one possible definition.

As I've mentioned already, I don't consider what the dj's did "bullying" but I understand that others might and I don't think there is one dictionary definition that invalidates their opinion. As Jen mentioned, people have a variety of opinions of this situation and perhaps one lesson from this incident is a reminder that we can't assume people will see things the same way and to try to be thoughtful of how actions can impact others - although I don't think anyone imagined this result from the original call.

ETA:

I didn't say it was.

- Sorry Jen, I must have misunderstood your reference to semantics. Nice gesture by the station to make a substantial donation for the family. As I mentioned above, I doubt even most people who thought the call was inappropriate imagined this outcome.