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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Do you have a link to a detailed and solid defense of why Plush should have won? Even one would be nice to read. By that, I mean comparing each and every element and analyzing their point value. Including PCS.

    Just because Plush landed a quad does not mean he should have won. The outrage at the time was about the champion's lack of a quad. There was concern that the men's field was regressing, and many piped in on that. But this doesn't make the result controversial.

    And if you feel that quad was worth too few points, that also doesn't make the result controversial.



    Perhaps you would like to present a detailed defense of this claim and explain why each and every skater was wrongly judged? Giving some examples of what rightful judging would have produced in terms of results would be good as well.
    I have this link, check it, read it!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy
    They collected many articles and opinions in this matter.
    And
    In germann tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGA5hRAP4Ts
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTofUH-03eg
    in mexican tv
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMUUDDI4mA

    I know the Italian Sonia Bianchetti supported him in her commentating on that night. Stojko, Candeloro, Lu Chen, Pelissier, J Pons (FS commentators and experts), coach of Shen & Zhao (they said if the Olympic games would take place in Europe or Asia, Plush would have won.) etc. And do you say wasn't a big debate????

    In Skate America, 2011, the commentators said that 2010 was the only time, since the introduction of the quad, that the gold medalist did not do a quad. They said the point system was immediately changed "so that would never happen again."
    It's funny.. You deny the fact again, because you say wasn't controversial Evan's victory. Maybe in North-America wasn't, but in Europe and Asia was.

    But you know, I don't care of Vancouver right now, I not begun to talk about this. I said Plush and Mishin fighted, and they won, the male FS became more exciting and hard. This is development, progression.

    And his fans made many supporting montages, my favorites

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrR_Rpyh5uE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIovfoDkpE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NutU5hkm8o

    I'm sure you don't read Plushy's thread, so look at his stage of preparation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQkc...qSEAw&index=24
    Last edited by lala; 12-18-2012 at 09:13 PM.

  2. #82

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    The champions lack of quad was controversial. It is not all controversy that plushenko lost because he did two quad triples. It's also not that a quad is like a triple. The entire physical dimension of the entire program is on a whole different level. It's what chan says now and what the first guy stojko talked about so much.

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    The champions lack of quad was controversial.
    Only in the minds of people who squawked endlessly about it.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  4. #84

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    Well it's in the rules of cop now

  5. #85

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    There is not much solid analysis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy.

    The main point made is the same old same old 'program with the quad should have won'. Disagreement doesn't equal controversy.

    Plush wasn't the only disgruntled skater in Vancouver - Weir too claimed he was under-marked. There are complaints and criticisms of judges decisions all the time, especially during the Olympics. They don't = controversy.

    And criticism has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes from Elvis Stoijko, who has always had a serious wuz-robbed issue and always claimed that the skaters with more quads should have won. He even thought Goebel should have beat Plushenko at one worlds because he landed three quads. And he even went so far as to claim he should have been in the top three in the SP in SLC.

    Ditto be wary of Bianchetti, who jumps at every possible opportunity to grind her axe about COP.

    It was the score for his short program that most Russian analysts say ultimately deprived him of the highest medal. Going into the free skate, less than a point separated Plushenko, Lysacek and Daisuke Takahashi of Japan. Plushenko was the only one of the three to land a quad in combination with a triple toe loop in the short program. "I did a great short program but didn't get the marks I deserved. . . When I asked why, they told me I was skating early and they had to retain top marks for the last group," said Plushenko.[19] The scant difference in the scores, a virtual tie, was slammed in the Russian media as dubious judging. “They ‘buried’ Zhenya (diminutive for Evgeni) before anything could be done. He should have won the short program with a 4 to 5 point lead, in my opinion. A short program is a technical one. And a 4+3 combination changes everything here because it shows that you’re capable of doing more than others," said famous Russian coach Tatiana Tarasova.
    This is an opinion but not an analysis. Taking the points value of the 4/3 into account and everything else, why should he have had a 4 to 5 point lead? And who is the 'they' Plush refers to? I rather doubt it was the judges themselves. They certainly didn't need to hold back marks - didn't do so for Shen and Zhao who skated first in the Pairs SP.

    Tarasova suggests the 4/3 should be worth more, and I actually agreed with that. But it wasn't at the time. Regardless of whether it was fair or not. It often wasn't fair when skaters won under 6.0 because of superior figures, but until figures were eliminated, those wins were arguably legitimate.

    Here is an explanation of Lysacek versus Plush LP scores:

    The way the competitors' long programs were structured as well as the marks for spins and step sequences were also mentioned as factors that ultimately tipped the scales in Lysacek's favor. Under the new ISU judging system all jumping passes in the last half of the free skate are worth an extra 10% in base value. In contrast to Lysacek’s five jumps, Plushenko placed only three out of his eight jumping passes in the second half of his program. The strategic placement of Lysacek's jumps erased Plushenko's quadruple toe loop/triple toe loop advantage. As a consequence, Plushenko outscored Lysacek in the jumps by only 0.3 points. In that Plushenk's lead from the short program was marginal – only 0.55 points - the scoring for the spins and step sequences was what sealed Lysacek's win. The spins ended up eating up Plushenko's 0.85 advantage, since all three of Lysacek’s spin sequences were awarded the highest level of difficulty - level 4, and only two of Plushenko’s were given that rating. This led to Lysacek outscoring Plushenko by 1.26 points in the spins. Additionally, Plushenko's step sequences were graded 0.9 points lower than Lysacek's, resulting in Lysacek’s 1.31 overall margin of victory.

    Here's an attempt to stir up controversy from an obscure Russian source. No links to any evidence.


    Explaining how Plushenko's technically superior short program was judged nearly equal to Lysacek's, Russian newspaper Express reported: “Not long before the Olympics, the International Skating Union (ISU) held talks with the U.S. television network ABC regarding a long-term contract. From reliable sources we learned that a condition had been placed on the ISU: the contract would be signed only if the U.S. got a gold in figure skating. The first place for the US in pairs and women’s skating competitions was out of the question so the focus was on ice dancing and men’s skating. Since Canadian ice dancers Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir were considered favorites, having highly influential benefactors on top of that, the decision was ultimately made to 'pull' Evan Lysacek up as the champion.
    This from an obscure Russian source.


    Quote Originally Posted by lala
    I'm sure you don't read Plushy's thread, so look at his stage of preparation.
    Actually I was one of small group of fans who rooted for Plush over Yags. I was rooting for him in Vancouver and I just can't stand Lysacek (to the extent that I was overjoyed that he didn't manage to compete this season). I was very disappointed with his programs. His jumps were not strong like they had been in the past and his programs were empty in terms of PCS - he clearly hadn't adjusted to the new system.

    I saw the Men's LP live in Vancouver and remember thinking that if afterwards that if anything, Plush was under-marked. Although I did agree that the quad should have been worth more.

    Put it this way: given how much I dislike Lysacek I was an easy target for arguments that Plush should have won. But, no argument was given that convinced me, not at the time nor since.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 12-19-2012 at 06:09 AM.

  6. #86

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    What's your standard of controversy? Pairs 2002 and nothing else? It was controversial. There's no arguing it wasn't controversial just because you don't agree with the basis of what made it controversial. Like "I don't care about quads so there was no controversy because quads aren't enough to cause controversy!" I don't get the standard your talking about. People opposed the win and didn't like it and so many rules were changed but it wasn't controversial because lysaceks medal wasn't taken away!

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    It is really meaningless to argue things happened almost 3 years ago. Men's figure skating changed dramatically since Vancouver, whether Plushenko played a part in it, it does not matter anymore. To his fans, he might contribute to the change of the quads value, to others, this might have nothing to do with him at all. No use to convince each other otherwise. So let both sides get over this page and move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    People opposed the win and didn't like it and so many rules were changed
    By "people" do you mean "yourself"? There were people who were just fine with the results, too.
    And unless you have evidence to show that the ISU specifically changed the rule because of Plushenko's win, then you can't claim that "many rules were changed" because of that one result.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    There is not much solid analysis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple_jump_controversy.

    The main point made is the same old same old 'program with the quad should have won'. Disagreement doesn't equal controversy.

    Plush wasn't the only disgruntled skater in Vancouver - Weir too claimed he was under-marked. There are complaints and criticisms of judges decisions all the time, especially during the Olympics. They don't = controversy.

    And criticism has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes from Elvis Stoijko, who has always had a serious wuz-robbed issue and always claimed that the skaters with more quads should have won. He even thought Goebel should have beat Plushenko at one worlds because he landed three quads. And he even went so far as to claim he should have been in the top three in the SP in SLC.

    Ditto be wary of Bianchetti, who jumps at every possible opportunity to grind her axe about COP.



    This is an opinion but not an analysis. Taking the points value of the 4/3 into account and everything else, why should he have had a 4 to 5 point lead? And who is the 'they' Plush refers to? I rather doubt it was the judges themselves. They certainly didn't need to hold back marks - didn't do so for Shen and Zhao who skated first in the Pairs SP.

    Tarasova suggests the 4/3 should be worth more, and I actually agreed with that. But it wasn't at the time. Regardless of whether it was fair or not. It often wasn't fair when skaters won under 6.0 because of superior figures, but until figures were eliminated, those wins were arguably legitimate.

    Here is an explanation of Lysacek versus Plush LP scores:




    Here's an attempt to stir up controversy from an obscure Russian source. No links to any evidence.




    This from an obscure Russian source.




    Actually I was one of small group of fans who rooted for Plush over Yags. I was rooting for him in Vancouver and I just can't stand Lysacek (to the extent that I was overjoyed that he didn't manage to compete this season). I was very disappointed with his programs. His jumps were not strong like they had been in the past and his programs were empty in terms of PCS - he clearly hadn't adjusted to the new system.

    I saw the Men's LP live in Vancouver and remember thinking that if afterwards that if anything, Plush was under-marked. Although I did agree that the quad should have been worth more.

    Put it this way: given how much I dislike Lysacek I was an easy target for arguments that Plush should have won. But, no argument was given that convinced me, not at the time nor since.
    I'm tired of this debate. You deny what is obvious:
    -Was discussion on this matter?
    -Many FS fans and experts supported Plush?
    -In many countries of Europe, told in the news that Plushenko was robbed?
    -Didn't like the quadless champion?
    -Was the ISU under the high pressure ?
    -They has changed the rules, immediately after the Olympic Games?
    -Need the quads to the victory right now?

    Which aren't that right? All true, have to put the story together. You can deny it here in these pages, but in real life you can't erase people's mind.

    About 2002. Goebel had 3 quad, but Plushy had the first 4-3-3 combo(not perfect, but good) in FS history, single quad, and 3A-half Lo-3F combo and so on. Plus fantastic performance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LR1HHSWoto Goebel had ugly posture and he had lower presentation marks.

  10. #90

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    Well if men's skating is "ALL ABOUT QUADS" and everything else is just window dressing, then I would also have to agree that Goebel should have won over Plush cause you know, it's ALL ABOUT QUADS
    Crazy about sports!

  11. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    By "people" do you mean "yourself"? There were people who were just fine with the results, too.
    And unless you have evidence to show that the ISU specifically changed the rule because of Plushenko's win, then you can't claim that "many rules were changed" because of that one result.
    Lol. Just be serious about the changes the isu made. All the changes were all big coincidence. Lol .

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by professordeb View Post
    Well if men's skating is "ALL ABOUT QUADS" and everything else is just window dressing, then I would also have to agree that Goebel should have won over Plush cause you know, it's ALL ABOUT QUADS
    Give me a break. Just read lala again. It's not all about quads but they must be a part of the jumps or it is not a complete performance at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Lol. Just be serious about the changes the isu made. All the changes were all big coincidence. Lol .
    The ISU changes rules every year. I think *you* are the one who needs to "be serious", or at least take the tinfoil hat off long enough to think rationally and not spout ridiculous conspiracy theories.
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Quote Originally Posted by overedge View Post
    The ISU changes rules every year. I think *you* are the one who needs to "be serious", or at least take the tinfoil hat off long enough to think rationally and not spout ridiculous conspiracy theories.
    Do you know what the rule and point value changes were? You can't see the direction or theme of them? you can't still believe that all the changes they made were not influenced by the 2010 Olympics! Raise value of quads and eliminate leveled step sequences in sp and lp. Every was just coincidence and the fact that more quads are done is just coincidence. Nothing to do with the rule changes which were not influenced by the 2010 olympics.
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 12-21-2012 at 02:15 AM.

  15. #95
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    A controversy was when the ISU changed the rules before 2005-6 season to disallow a repeat of the same triple jump in the Pairs FS, which gave a significant advantage to Totmianina/Marinin, who had 3T and 3S, and a significant disadvantage to Shen/Zhao, who did not. You may recall that Zhao snapped an Achilles tendon trying to re-learn another triple. This was against the practice in other sports, like gymnastics, to make make changes after the Olympics.

    In the 2007-2010 Olympic cycle,

    2007 World Championships, 4T worth 9pts:
    • Podium: 3:0: Joubert, Takahashi, Lambiel.
    • SP: 3:12. Joubert (#1, combo), Lysacek (#5, combo attempt), and Ponsero (#12).
    • FS: 6:12. Each of the Top 5, plus Preaubert (11) landed them, less dire for quad-lovers. (Buttle [8] under-rotated his.)


    2008 World Championships, 4T worth 9 points.
    • Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed: Gold (Buttle) quadless, silver (Joubert) with landed quad, bronze (Weir) with under-rotated (downgraded to 3T) quad.
    • "No quad" criticism starts to ramp up, especially when the quadless Buttle beat Joubert in the FS.
    • SP: 2:12. Lambiel (4) and Joubert (5) attempted quads. (You have to go to #14 Abbott to find another attempt.)
    • FS: 5:12 Joubert (2), Voronov (4), Takahashi (6), Lambiel (7), and Abbott (10) attempted them. Weir (5) underrotated his attempt.


    At the 2009 World Championships. Value of quad raised .8, or 9% to 9.8
    • Podium 1:3: Neither the gold (Lysacek) nor silver (Chan) medalist attempted a quad. Only Joubert (bronze) attempted quads.
    • "No quad" criticism picks up, since two of the three medalists didn't even attempts a quad, which, at least, Weir did in 2008
    • SP: 4:12. Joubert (1), Verner (4), Voronov (9), and Ponsero (11)
    • FS 4:12. Joubert (3), Verner (4), Oda (8), and Lutai (9) attempted quads.


    2010 World Championships, 4T worth 9.8.
    • Podium: 2:3 attempted, 1:3 landed. Takahashi under-rotated, Chan, no, Joubert, yes.
    • SP: 3:12. Joubert (3), Van der Perren (10), and Voronov (11)
    • FS: 7:12. Joubert (4), 6-10 (Abbott, Schultheiss, Reynolds [2 different quads with +GOE], Van der Perren, Fernandez) and Kozuka (12). Takahashi under-rotated a 4F attempt and received the downgrade penalty.


    Leading up to the 2010 Olympics, there was vocal criticism that Men were not doing enough quads, or at least that the ones that were winning medals weren't doing enough quads, with a low of medalist attempts in 2009, and it started to be vocal before Plushenko's return comeback crossed the mind of his new wife. (Even afterwards, there was concern his body wouldn't hold up, however hard he worked or as much as he wanted it.) After the Olympics, the value of the quad was raised by .5 (5%) to 10.3, but the under-rotation penalty was still in effect. This increase was less in point and percentage value than the increase between 2007-8 and 2008-9.

    2011 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3
    • Podium 3:3: Chan, Kozuka, Gachinski, all with quads.
    • SP: 6:12. Chan (1), Oda (2), Gachinski (4), Verner (8), Joubert (9), and Bradley (12) attempted quads.
    • FS: 7:12. Chan (1), Kozuka (2), Gachinski (3), Joubert (4), Brezina (5, 2 different quads), Fernandez (11, 2 different quads), Kozuka (12) landed quads; Takahashi (6) popped his attempt. In other words, no change in the number of men who attempted and landed quads in the FS from 2010.


    2012 World Championships, 4T worth 10.3, but under-rotation penalty was changed (from rotation downgrade to 70% of the base value for downgrades up to a half revolution, for quads, a significant increase in value, 7.2 vs. 4).
    • Podium 3:3: Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu, all with quads.
    • SP: 8:12. The Top 7 skaters had quads in the SP, as well as 12th-place Reynolds.
    • FS: 11:12. All but #9 Contesti had at least a quad in the FS.


    Perhaps adding .5 to the base of the quad after the Olympic season, like a responsible sport would do, was the tipping point for quad attempts in the SP; the jump in attempts in the FS appears after the change in under-rotation penalties, which, of course, applies to all jumps with at least two rotations, as well as a boost (33%) in the number of skaters who attempted them in the SP. I don't remember Plushenko saying anything about the under-rotation penalty. The ISU seems to have figured out that one on their own.

    Perhaps it was the change in value, or perhaps it was because in 2011 that Chan got his quad that there was an increase in quad attempts, because to be competitive with him, the others had to have them, too. That he picked up where he left off after a Fall 2009 injury and illness that stymied his training shouldn't be much of a surprise.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    You can't see the direction or Rene of them?
    Nothing to do with the duke changes which were nit influenced by the 2010 olympics.
    That tinfoil hat must really be hurting....
    You should never write words with numbers. Unless you're seven. Or your name is Prince. - "Weird Al" Yankovic, "Word Crimes"

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    Excellent post, kwanfan1818. You illustrate that the quad was less important during the 2007-2011 period than it had been previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    A controversy was when the ISU changed the rules before 2005-6 season to disallow a repeat of the same triple jump in the Pairs FS, which gave a significant advantage to Totmianina/Marinin, who had 3T and 3S, and a significant disadvantage to Shen/Zhao, who did not. You may recall that Zhao snapped an Achilles tendon trying to re-learn another triple. This was against the practice in other sports, like gymnastics, to make make changes after the Olympics.
    Good example.


    Perhaps adding .5 to the base of the quad after the Olympic season, like a responsible sport would do, was the tipping point for quad attempts in the SP; the jump in attempts in the FS appears after the change in under-rotation penalties, which, of course, applies to all jumps with at least two rotations, as well as a boost (33%) in the number of skaters who attempted them in the SP. I don't remember Plushenko saying anything about the under-rotation penalty. The ISU seems to have figured out that one on their own.

    Perhaps it was the change in value, or perhaps it was because in 2011 that Chan got his quad that there was an increase in quad attempts, because to be competitive with him, the others had to have them, too. That he picked up where he left off after a Fall 2009 injury and illness that stymied his training shouldn't be much of a surprise.
    Technical standards for a field go up and down, they do not maintain a consistent trajectory. When the standards go down, skater will always raise them to gain advantage. In the best case scenario, the rest of the field will strive for a higher standard as well. We've seen this with a quad, but less so with the 3-3 for women. Women keep sliding back to the 3-2 standard, but at least some at present are pushing for the 3-3.

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    Euros are coming! If Plush with one/two quads beats Fernandez with two/three quads I'll . It will be epic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Give me a break. Just read lala again. It's not all about quads but they must be a part of the jumps or it is not a complete performance at all.
    I have read lala. The poster goes on and on and on about how Plushenko and apparently eveyone NOT in North America felt it was all about the winner having a QUAD. Winning without one was just terrible. However, thanks be to the "mighty Plushenko and his fans" (according to some) -- that boat had now been turned around and headed in the right direction. As was pointed out by kwanfan, the quad has steadily worked it's way back into competition with the help of raising it's worth and skaters learning how to land it -- and successfully -- in their programs. Just because lala continues to insist that the changes only occurred BECAUSE of the "outrage of some" regarding the outcome of the men's comp in the 2010 Olympics is -- well let's just say I am LMAO.

    You know, I have really enjoyed watching Plushenko live. I don't hate or dislike the man since I don't actually know him, but if I listen to some of his ubers here, I sure could get soured on him. Which would be a pity cause I respect what he is trying to do. I may not think it's in his best interests but I can understand the sentiment of wishing to compete for your country when the Olympics are being held IN your country.
    Crazy about sports!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    A controversy was when the ISU changed the rules before 2005-6 season to disallow a repeat of the same triple jump in the Pairs FS, which gave a significant advantage to Totmianina/Marinin, who had 3T and 3S, and a significant disadvantage to Shen/Zhao, who did not. You may recall that Zhao snapped an Achilles tendon trying to re-learn another triple. This was against the practice in other sports, like gymnastics, to make make changes after the Olympics.

    .................
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTkne...-pJU-w&index=2 Figure Skating ( Men's) quad jump challenger 3olympics SP Montage

    Transition was never used as judging criterion in the single event until the Vanc Olycs. It was not used in 2009 WC and Grand Prix Final.That's why it is so controversial! It is not ice dacing overall.The way TR was included in judging criterion is illegal. Because Lori Nichol is coaching P. Chan, taught ISU judges how to judge transition properly 2 months before the Olympic Games. It's an apparent illegal act. Besides, it's a quite abrupt decision to include TR two months before the Oly.


    Make changes after the Oly ?
    Last edited by lala; 12-20-2012 at 07:29 PM.

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