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  1. #601

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    The point being, Menshov had the opportunity and he failed before
    And so did Voronov. What did he do the last time out at Worlds? He flopped spectacularly and was partly responsible for Russia losing two spots.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    Yes, but one only has to look at the scoring of US Nationals, and wonder how transparent the US system really is. Seems to me that the US judges do their best to ensure they get the teams they want. (Look at the ladies scoring)

    At least the Russians are honest that they are taking more competitions into account, and as mentioned they pay for training.
    In any other sport that, if it really takes place, would be labelled "fixing" and there would be serious legal consequences. Why is FS exempt from this standard

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    And so did Voronov. What did he do the last time out at Worlds? He flopped spectacularly and was partly responsible for Russia losing two spots.
    I will say it again :
    The rules that russian federation had in place states that (since they have 3 spots for euro) first two spots are decided using the results from the nationals, hence Plushy and Voronov. If Menshov wanted to get a spot he should have finished in the top 2, which he failed to do so. Third spot is decided by the coaches council, there they went narrowly in favour of Kovtun.

  4. #604

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I will say it again :
    The rules that russian federation had in place states that (since they have 3 spots for euro) first two spots are decided using the results from the nationals, hence Plushy and Voronov. If Menshov wanted to get a spot he should have finished in the top 2, which he failed to do so. Third spot is decided by the coaches council, there they went narrowly in favour of Kovtun.
    My argument is not against the selection policy for Euros post-Nationals as regards Voronov; as silver medallist of course he should have gone.

    Your argument was that Menshov should not be given a chance because he "failed before" at Euros. Which looks pretty weak compared to what Voronov did at Worlds last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    My argument is not against the selection policy for Euros post-Nationals as regards Voronov; as silver medallist of course he should have gone.

    Your argument was that Menshov should not be given a chance because he "failed before" at Euros. Which looks pretty weak compared to what Voronov did at Worlds last year.
    No the argument is that Menshov has had years to accomplish something in figure skating, and really hasn't. His scores in international skates hardly show he's never going to be a top skater.

    However the international judges are showing that they like Kovtun very much, and Kovtun is extremely young. He has the potential to be a star, and or has the most potentional at doing well.

    The coaches would rather invest in their young talent....Its not just Menshov's age, after all Plushenko's being sent. Its Menshov's accomplishments too. Once again Kovtun showed that the Coaches Council was right. He was Russia's top man at Euros
    Last edited by bek; 02-06-2013 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #606

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    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    No the argument is that Menshov has had years to accomplish something in figure skating, and really hasn't. His scores in international skates hardly show he's never going to be a top skater.

    However the international judges are showing that they like Kovtun very much, and Kovtun is extremely young. He has the potential to be a star, and or has the most potentional at doing well.

    The coaches would rather invest in their young talent....Its not just Menshov's age, after all Plushenko's being sent. Its Menshov's accomplishments too. Once again Kovtun showed that the Coaches Council was right. He was Russia's top man at Euros
    That doesn't make Voronov look that good either! That he wasn't the top man at Euros. He was the silver medalist. He has won 2 GP medals in his senior career and placed 4th in the FS at 2008 worlds. So that's all he's done. He won silver at russian nationals so therefore he was in according to the selection rules but really Voronov is not doing well and I think this part of the thread was about Voronov and how his career really isn't that different from Menshovs.

  7. #607

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    Interview with Vera Bazarova and Yuri Larionov, taken in Saransk at Russian Junior Championships: http://fsrussia.ru/news/433_vera-baz...snimut-shvy--/

    Yuri says he had surgery on his hand (recurrent wrist fracture) in Sports Injury Clinic in Moscow. Next week (this week, actually) they should be back in Moscow, the sutures will be removed, and they start training for Russian Cap Final, where they plan to skate to compensate for lack of competitive practice after the Grand Prix Final, and then concentrate on preparation for the Worlds. Currently, they cannot perform all the elements (lifts, death spiral) because of sutures, but otherwise practice as usual.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by misskarne View Post
    And so did Voronov. What did he do the last time out at Worlds? He flopped spectacularly and was partly responsible for Russia losing two spots.
    Vornov actually skated well at Worlds last year...his FS was very strong jump-wise, just between the depth of the field and his PCS being low, his placement wasn't great. Kovtun zayaked and still got quite impressive scores at Euros, not to mention at the JGPF and one of his other JGP events he also put up pretty strong scores. And this is as a 17 year old with lots of room to improve. I understand the fed backing him and giving him the nod for Worlds. Menshov sure skated pretty well this season, but he's never going to be taken seriously on the World stage, not now considering his age, and his results in the past haven't been great as a whole so he doesn't have his experience and past accomplishments to boost him up to contender status when he does skate well like someone like Joubert does. From the looks of it, Kovtun appears to have what he needs to become a contender on the World level a few years down the line, and given his young age, judges are not going to hold back on his scores because he's an up-and-comer with loads of potential, rather than a skater whose age and lack of impressive competitive history makes him an afterthought or also-ran like Menshov or Vornov. I agree the selection of Kovtun for Euros maybe was a little questionable, but given how well he performed there, his going to Worlds is completely justified IMO. Further, his winning the JGPF and great FS there I do think sort of amount to enough of an edge to get him to Euros over Menshov.

  9. #609

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    Voronov was clean at 2012 worlds but his jumps were not compettive to place in the top 10. His three jump combo was 2a 3t 2t. It was not a really serious skate aside from the quad and two triple axels.
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 02-06-2013 at 08:24 PM.

  10. #610

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    Quote Originally Posted by quiqie View Post
    Interview with Vera Bazarova and Yuri Larionov, taken in Saransk at Russian Junior Championships: http://fsrussia.ru/news/433_vera-baz...snimut-shvy--/

    Yuri says he had surgery on his hand (recurrent wrist fracture) in Sports Injury Clinic in Moscow. Next week (this week, actually) they should be back in Moscow, the sutures will be removed, and they start training for Russian Cap Final, where they plan to skate to compensate for lack of competitive practice after the Grand Prix Final, and then concentrate on preparation for the Worlds. Currently, they cannot perform all the elements (lifts, death spiral) because of sutures, but otherwise practice as usual.
    Thanks
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  11. #611
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    Voronov has also had a much more consistent year this year than last season, with the exception of the strange spin blunder that snowballed at Europeans. So perhaps sending him to Worlds this year would not elicit the negative results like last year; but his PCS would still be too low to seriously challenge.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    There is no way makarova with her triple jump would be a good substitute.
    I'm talking about 2nd substitute behind Leonova, like she was listed for Euros. So in case fed decides to send Leonova, she'd probably be first substitute, which would give her higher chances to make the team. All other girls, who placed in front of her at Nats - apart those who were competing at Euros - were not age eligible as far as I know. Beside that it was my point was that Gosviani should go, as she deserved that spot fair and in square by beating the two other girls at RN. This was a "support for Gosviani" despite "sad for Makarova" post to clear up in case you wrongly understood that my intention was to argue RF should substitute Govsiani with Makarova.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    So you want Menshov to be sent ahead of Voronov, who comfortable beat him at the nationals ??? Kovtun did well at the JGPF and did very well at the Europeans against a very good field by finishing 5th. So Kovtun has shown to be more than capable of doing well on a senior stage. Something Menshov failed to do when he was the Russian champion, and had a disaster at the europeans. .
    I didnít mention Voronov in my post. Thatís another topic, I will come back later on. Kovtun did well in JGP and so did Menshov in his senior Events this year. Kovtun sure did well at Europeans, but do you know how Menshov would have placed? (He beat Brezina at NRW just before Christmas). And Menshov didnít have a disaster at his first Euros, he placed 7th, so just two places lower than Kovtun. You have strange maths if 5th is very good and 7th a disaster.
    But like Kovtun Menshov had a great free skate in 2011, with the only difference that judges didnít held him up after a disastrous short, like they did with other skaters (he made two mistakes in his SP, like Kovtun did this year ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    The point being, Menshov had the opportunity and he failed before, as for russian nationals, he narrowly won the bronze. .
    Well, at least he won a medal - canít be said of Kovtun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    RSF had set up its rule and it followed the rules, just because you didn't happen to read them does not mean that it did not exist. The rules said the best two athletes at the national (plushy and Voronov) and third spot would be decided by the coaches council. The coaches council narrowly decided to give the spot to Kovtun. .
    Do you actually read other posters posts, before your reply to them? Obviously not, otherwise you would have noticed, that I didnít refer to Voronov at all, as his case is clear. Moreover I was talking about a ďchance to make the teamĒ, and only referring to the trio Kovtun Ė Gachinski Ė Menshov and their chances for a spot, even if only as a substitute nominee (donít forget that just a couple of weeks ago there was still talk about Plushenko going to worlds). Of course I know that 1st and 2nd finisher were fixed and nothing against a rule stating that coaches decide on the third spot, but does this imply this decision can be taken randomly? It should certainly also follow the principles of sport Ė and obviously even some Russian skating officials involved in the whole affair think they were not applied here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    These rules have always existed and Russians have used this rule before, example sending Leonova over Petushkova to the europeans few years ago. If you like to follow national results so closely, how are expecting Makarova as a substitute if Gosiani would not go. Should the opportunity not go to Leonova, who beat Makarova ...
    See answer above. Obviously you again didnít read my post, there was no talk about sending Makarova instead of Govsiani or Leonova. But then Iím able to cheer for a skater without wanting her/him to take spots from other skaters, who placed better in the relevant events. Apparently not everybodyís cup of tea.

    Talking about Nats Ė how Leonova managed to be only half a point below Makarova in the FS, who at least managed to stay on her feet this time and how Leonova was ahead of her in PCS for that lackluster performance just gives you another insight that some coaches have more influence on judges and some less.


    Quote Originally Posted by bek View Post
    No the argument is that Menshov has had years to accomplish something in figure skating, and really hasn't. His scores in international skates hardly show he's never going to be a top skater.
    But thatís not true if this season is concerned. Menshov had quite good results (e.g. he won NRW-Trophy, finishing ahead of Brezina, who won a medal at Euros!)

    Beside that I donít see the point Ė some skaters are late developers due to various reasons (nerves, injuries, some might choose to invest in education first), should they quit as soon as youngsters are coming up as long as they still feel they might beat them under fair judging? Maria Butyrskaja would then never been a World Champion, Akiko Suzuki should have quit skating years ago!

    Actually I donít like that this discussion always ends up in a Kovtun-Menshov fight. Itís all about the question if a fed can pick skaters for major events just by personal preference or if such decision should be based on sport and on consistent and predictable selection methods. If results and accomplishments would be so very much important to the fed, again, why did they announce that Menshov and Gachinski should have a skate off before Worlds? Gachinski didnít deliver much this season and has been beaten by Menshov twice. So here results donít count at all, but if itís Kovtun Ė Menshov (you could insert skater X and Y) then results Ė despite you could hardly argue that junior and senior events are comparable Ė count. Thatís pick and choose based on the fact, which methods gives you the preferred result.

    If age and lack of achievements at progressed age is such a decisive factor, so that skaters will never make the team even when they improve in later years, I already see the first young Russian girls taking secret meds to avoid puberty for peaking as early as possible Ė once the train is gone for a Russian skater, itís obviously gone and you can never catch up. With that as a standard strategy we will probably also see a lot of the young Russian ladies switiching countries after just one or two subpar seasons.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Voronov was clean at 2012 worlds but his jumps were not compettive to place in the top 10. His three jump combo was 2a 3t 2t. It was not a really serious skate aside from the quad and two triple axels.
    Lol, that is still serious content. Voronov had less TES 3 years ago when he finished 4th! On the free at worlds. He was backed then as there was no plush comeback or Gachinski. He was dumped by his fed last year and unfortunayely politics and fed support are still highly prominent.

    I hapen to think that the empty Morozov tripe deserved the low placement, but using his TES base as a reasoning is inaccurate, since, as highlighted ..the same base brought him to 4th at worlds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Lol, that is still serious content. Voronov had less TES 3 years ago when he finished 4th! On the free at worlds. He was backed then as there was no plush comeback or Gachinski. He was dumped by his fed last year and unfortunayely politics and fed support are still highly prominent.

    I hapen to think that the empty Morozov tripe deserved the low placement, but using his TES base as a reasoning is inaccurate, since, as highlighted ..the same base brought him to 4th at worlds.
    But so many people above him had moved to two quads! And quad combos. He stayed the same when everyone else had advanced spectacularly in quads and jumps overall. So while him rotating one quad in a free in 2008 was amazing and got him to 4th when so many others were hit with downgrades was impressive that was not impressive at all in 2012. So it is really interesting how his free skate score was almost exactly the same in 2008 and 2012 and one was 4th place and one was 15th place it shows how huge a change there was in those 4 years. A total revolution in the jumps and rules with underrotation and downgrade. I think he says he was injured so that is why he didn't do two quads in the FS but anyway that is what he would have needed or if some bizarre twist was sent to London. 2 quads a 3/3 and just much bigger moves because now there's been revolution in mens skating.

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by poths View Post
    Lol, that is still serious content. Voronov had less TES 3 years ago when he finished 4th! On the free at worlds. He was backed then as there was no plush comeback or Gachinski. He was dumped by his fed last year and unfortunayely politics and fed support are still highly prominent.

    I hapen to think that the empty Morozov tripe deserved the low placement, but using his TES base as a reasoning is inaccurate, since, as highlighted ..the same base brought him to 4th at worlds.
    Poor dude, is that going to be written on his tombstone?

    Beloved son. Dedicated athlete. He once finished fourth in the free at the Worlds.

  16. #616
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  17. #617

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    I don't get the hating towards Kovtun.
    Yes, he was lucky he got sent to Euros, no doubt about that. The outrage was understandable after Russian Nats that he got picked over Menshov.
    BUT
    Kovtun actually DELIVERED at Euros, making the fed's decision to send him justified.
    The "What ifs" in case Menshov had been at Euros are stupid since no one knows.
    Maxim did very well at Euros while Voronov bombed so Maxim DESERVED his spot on the Worlds team. The Russian fed is clearly interested in obtaining 2 spots for Sochi Olympics and neither Voronov who has bombed most of the time at big competitions nor Menshov who is EXTREMELY inconsistent (remember that Universiade where he placed 25th in the SP and 1st in the FP?) are likely to place in the top 10.
    The judges like Maxim and thus would be willing to give him the PCS he needs for the top 10 (in case he doesn't bomb).
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine."

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    Iמnterview with Leonova for fcp-press
    in short: should she make it to the national team for the worlds she will be skating the last year's LP

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moka-Ananas View Post
    I don't get the hating towards Kovtun.
    His programs are totally empty and don't even have a semblance of style. He's not even pretending to do anything other than jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Iמnterview with Leonova for fcp-press
    in short: should she make it to the national team for the worlds she will be skating the last year's LP
    The Requiem for a Dream empty piece of shite?

    Wonderful.

    One more reason to send Gosviani (Russian Fed, do the right thing!).

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    Leonova is the current world silver medalist and is politely being shown the retirement door. It is sad that Morozov gave her that crap of a LP that highlighted all her weaknesses last year.
    I love Gosviani's skating..gorgeous lines, attention to details, balletic posture..the Russian ballerina on ice, everything Leonova is not.
    Has it ever happened to a silver medalist to be dropped like this?

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