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  1. #301
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    I would have sent Menshov because two fourth places in the GP is pretty good and he should have a respectable skate at Euros, but I am a little surprised at the outpouring of emotion over this. It's not like Menshov had a brilliant skate at Nationals whatsoever. As Marco says, Voronov and Menshov are all about jumps, and presumably whoever outjumps the other will place higher at Euros. If they both had skated well at Nats, I guess they would be sent to Euros, so that the stronger one can be sent to Worlds and hopefully land all his jumps and eke out a 10th place. That's the best you could expect from either of them and they would have to be squeaky clean to do it.

    However, if Menshov skates at Worlds as he did in Nationals or the GP, there is very little chance of him making the top 10 at Worlds, so there is little point in sending him from the fed's POV.

  2. #302
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    Did Plushenko say he isn't skating at Worlds? If yes, all the more reason to give Kovtun a chance at Euros. Voronov's spot at Euros is undeniable but he isn't always that reliable. If Kovtun manage to beat Voronov at Euros, then he can legitimately be sent to Worlds.

  3. #303
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    Plushenko's gameplan has been to do only Euros. Mishin started hinting after Nationals that he may go to Worlds if he is feeling physically up to it, but it's not set in stone, so they need to assume he's not going.

  4. #304
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    Having stated beforehand that first and second would go automatically to Euros, the only way Menshov could have been sent over Voronov is if Menshov had beaten Voronov at Nationals.

    I wonder if Plushenko has any show lined up around Worlds. If so, it would be best to submit him as a Worlds substitite, so he can decide up to the last minute whether to skate. They don't want a reprise of his ban situation.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #305
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    I just think the whole situation, arranged to likely give Kovtun more exposure/street cred/experience/ranking points heading into Sochi, which it seems the Fed wants him to be on the team for provided Russia has at least 2 spots, could potentially backfire.

    Kovtun has great odds to medal or even win JW, which I assume he will be sent to regardless of what happens at Europeans, however, by doing Europeans as well, he has to train senior programs from now until then, then switch back to training junior programs after Europeans up until JW. So loss of training time, not to mention fatigue, divided attention, jumping time zones, etc could all hurt him come JW. Not to mention that with this being his senior international debut and his selection being controversial, I would not be surprised if Maxim doesn't skate nearly as well as he did at his JGP in Croatia and at the JGPF - where he was nearly flawless with a quad and three 3a between his two programs both times. In fact, I wonder if Kovtun might bomb a bit at Euros, or not even bomb so much as have a nervy skate, and if he does and doesn't place so well, there will be backlash about how Menshov should have been sent all along and questions about whether he's now a headcase and whatnot, and that could affect his mindset and potentially the outcome at JW as well.

    I get Kovtun will do better at the Olympics if he has more international reputation and points, but I honestly think winning, or even medaling considering the strength of Yan and Farris, among others, at JW will help him as much if not more than a lower top-10 finish at Euros will, which is what I expect he'll place. And further, if doing both competitions wears him out and affects his training and confidence, he could have finishes at one or both events that are below his capabilities and then sending him to Euros really does no good.

    I could maybe understand things more if it looked like Kovtun had a great shot to medal at Euros, but at this point Plush and Javi are a lock for 2 of the podium spots, and Amodio, Brezina are definitely capable of taking the last spot if they skate well, not to mention with it being Euros, skaters like Joubert, Verner, Voronov, etc. could even be in the mix with good skates because Euros doesn't seem to dump the old comers as quickly as at Worlds.

  6. #306

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    Anything could happen, I don't think its worth getting all worked up over personally. Yes, yes easy for me to say, I'm not involved. Any number of scenarios could play out. We don't have to wrap these skaters up like they are fabrege eggs.

  7. #307
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    Johnny Weir just tweeted:

    Yay I'm going to Russia from March until April for @EvgeniPlushenko show. http://maestro-concert.ru/concert/ev..._vsego_lish_30 … More shows will be added. I hope to see you!

    The show, at least as of now, opens on 23 March with Joubert, Tuktamysheva, and Kavaguti/Smirnov among those competing in London.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #308

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    Very sad that Menshov will not compete at Euros He is truly one of the most interesting skaters to watch. I don't agree at all that he is all about jumps that could not be more wrong with a skater that is absolutely amazing to see live due to his great expressions,interpretation etc.People who thinks he is all about jumps have not seen him skate live .

  9. #309

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    That poster misspoke, they were referring to Kovtun...

  10. #310
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    Gachinski should go to another coach. He needs a Brian Orser kind of coach. He has the same technical strength and weakness as Fernandez. But unlike Fernandez, He's just looking hopeless now. Why not have some change. But I guess in Russia, coach changing is very big thing, he might get trouble for that.

  11. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Gachinski should go to another coach. He needs a Brian Orser kind of coach. He has the same technical strength and weakness as Fernandez. But unlike Fernandez, He's just looking hopeless now. Why not have some change. But I guess in Russia, coach changing is very big thing, he might get trouble for that.
    I don't think that coach Mishin is Gachinski's problem. Apparently he has been going through some turmoil in his private life.

  12. #312

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    Thanks, Eislauffan. There are usually legitimate reasons for why a skater may be "looking hopeless" in competition and we fans don't have the right to know anything the skater doesn't choose to share publicly.

    Re-posting from the competition thread in Kiss and Cry:
    Quote Originally Posted by sandra_persch View Post
    Nikol Gosviani was added to the junior ladies event per entry list 30.12.2012
    Mentor Nestle Nesquik Torun Cup (Torun, Poland Jan. 9-12) updated list of entries: http://mnntc.axeltorun.pl/images/fil...30.12.2012.pdf
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-31-2012 at 04:32 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  13. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lis View Post
    Very sad that Menshov will not compete at Euros He is truly one of the most interesting skaters to watch. I don't agree at all that he is all about jumps that could not be more wrong with a skater that is absolutely amazing to see live due to his great expressions,interpretation etc.People who thinks he is all about jumps have not seen him skate live .
    I agree with you about Menshov, I started to really like his skating since last year. I am very sad he is not going to Euros, would much rather see him than Kovtun.

  14. #314

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I would have sent Menshov because two fourth places in the GP is pretty good and he should have a respectable skate at Euros, but I am a little surprised at the outpouring of emotion over this. It's not like Menshov had a brilliant skate at Nationals whatsoever. As Marco says, Voronov and Menshov are all about jumps, and presumably whoever outjumps the other will place higher at Euros. If they both had skated well at Nats, I guess they would be sent to Euros, so that the stronger one can be sent to Worlds and hopefully land all his jumps and eke out a 10th place. That's the best you could expect from either of them and they would have to be squeaky clean to do it.

    However, if Menshov skates at Worlds as he did in Nationals or the GP, there is very little chance of him making the top 10 at Worlds, so there is little point in sending him from the fed's POV.
    I think there is a lot of emotion involved because Menshov has been an "
    also-ran, just short of a break- through" skater for almost a decade. And when another would have given up a long time ago, Menshov persevered, improved and started showing legitimately high results at a very late age. He turns 30 in February. I disagree that he is all about jumps. While not balletic and graceful, he is a very interesting, smart skater, with unusual ( and somewhat bizzarre) concepts in his programs. In a word, he is a maverick. Thus the outpouring of emotion when the Federation passed him by; much more so than it would have been for most other skaters ( also, it is a complete hearsay, but the hearsay reports he is a very classy, decent guy)
    From the point of view of the Federation, I do not see any violation of rules in sending Kovtun; it makes strategical sense. But passing Menshov by feels particularly cold; and that's to what, I think, his fellow skaters are reacting.
    improving my ballad- like lines

  15. #315

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    when Menshov won the russian mens title in 2011 there was talks about him being robbed in the past and especially the previous year when he placed 4th and ahead of Voronov in the FS. I forget who the famle skater was who said he had been robbed and now he won something very deserving.

  16. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by dinakt View Post
    I think there is a lot of emotion involved because Menshov has been an "
    also-ran, just short of a break- through" skater for almost a decade. And when another would have given up a long time ago, Menshov persevered, improved and started showing legitimately high results at a very late age. He turns 30 in February. I disagree that he is all about jumps. While not balletic and graceful, he is a very interesting, smart skater, with unusual ( and somewhat bizzarre) concepts in his programs. In a word, he is a maverick. Thus the outpouring of emotion when the Federation passed him by; much more so than it would have been for most other skaters ( also, it is a complete hearsay, but the hearsay reports he is a very classy, decent guy)
    From the point of view of the Federation, I do not see any violation of rules in sending Kovtun; it makes strategical sense. But passing Menshov by feels particularly cold; and that's to what, I think, his fellow skaters are reacting.
    It sounds like Menshov is well liked by other skaters. The fed, however, has to make a 'cold' strategic decision. It is also natural for others to feel for Menshov. It's possible that Kovtun may not perform well at the Euros and Menshov could still get his chance at the 2013 worlds.

  17. #317
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    Plushenko talked about the WCH.

    Plushenko claims that he feels no pressure from the Russian Figure Skating Federation.

    “We have a great relationship,” he stated. “We will work things out. If am healthy enough, I may even make a trip to London, but health is the priority right now.”

    http://www.goldenskate.com/2012/12/e...2014-olympics/

  18. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lis View Post
    People who thinks he is all about jumps have not seen him skate live .
    I saw him live this year and kind of thought he was all about jumps. But I enjoyed watching him.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I would have sent Menshov because two fourth places in the GP is pretty good and he should have a respectable skate at Euros, but I am a little surprised at the outpouring of emotion over this. It's not like Menshov had a brilliant skate at Nationals whatsoever.
    ………….
    However, if Menshov skates at Worlds as he did in Nationals or the GP, there is very little chance of him making the top 10 at Worlds, so there is little point in sending him from the fed's POV.
    If Menshov skates like he did in December at NRW -Trophy, he actually might get a medal at Euros (the overall scoring would have been enough if compared with the last three years result’s at Euros) and easily place top 10 at Worlds. Actually after the start of GPF I think no one except Hanyu and Fernandez reached a higher TES in the free than Menshov at NRW. So if he can keep it together, he could place quite well.

    True, Menshov didn’t have a brilliant skate at RN, but I remember he had some boot problems and still he was better than Kovtun.

    And if Fed took into account this season’s results / scores in addition to the results of Nationals, I think they should have rather favoured Menshov. As already pointed out comparing placements in seniors to placement in juniors 1:1 is not really objective and in particular not in case the senior skater had to compete against reigning world medalists. - Just hope Russian Fed and Tat have not lost sense for reality and think Kovtun could beat them already. Menshov had some decent skates this season proving he can to a certain level keep up with the elite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lis View Post
    Very sad that Menshov will not compete at Euros He is truly one of the most interesting skaters to watch. I don't agree at all that he is all about jumps that could not be more wrong with a skater that is absolutely amazing to see live due to his great expressions,interpretation etc.People who thinks he is all about jumps have not seen him skate live .
    I saw him skating live in Oberstdorf and I was actually very nicely surprized. Saying he is all about jumps is indeed pretty harsh. I really like that his programmes seem to be a bit different, sometimes strange, but interesting (= no overused music he skates through). But compared to other top skaters like e.g. the Japanese top guys I’d say he is lacking something in the artistic department. But on the other hand it’s not like Kovtun can keep up with the very best seniors in that area yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    It sounds like Menshov is well liked by other skaters. The fed, however, has to make a 'cold' strategeic decision. It is also natural for others to feel for Menshov. It's possible that Kovtun may not perform well at the Euros and Menshov could still get his chance at the 2013 worlds.
    I don’t think the other skaters would have opposed to the Fed’s decision just because of the RF making a “cold” strategic decision towards a well liked guy (though the other skaters probably would not have supported him the way they did in case he’d be a complete A$$). And I don’t think Nilov would have made an appeal to the Ministry, if it was just “feeling” for the “nice” guy.

    But you mentioned it being a strategic decision and that’s actually the point, in fact it looks like the fed’s decision was neither based on the skaters performances at Nats nor on their performances during this season (see above – IMO this would rather favoured Menshov), but only for the strategic reason to promote a young skater supported by a famous coach which they consider to possibly be the “next big thing” in FS at the expense of a skater who has no backing in behind and which they don’t consider as perspective any longer due to his advanced age.

    Taking into account strategic issues for sure is important, but unethic if it leads to age discrimination of skaters, to decisions which are based on influence of famous coaches, to decisions which fully leave aside the sportive results of the competitors and lead to completely unequal treatment. I really think that Russian Fed was sending a very alarming message to their skaters – they’ll replace any skater that seems to be pretty much at the end of his “lifecycle” by a perspective younger one if it’s “opportune” for them without caring of their current results / skating level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    It's possible that Kovtun may not perform well at the Euros and Menshov could still get his chance at the 2013 worlds.
    It’s pretty unlikely that either of them will go to Worlds and Russia has only one sport this year, which will go to Plushenko or Voronov in first choice. And Russian Fed also already stated that Menshov might need to do a skate off with Gachinski in case that spot can be filled in with someone else, which I think is just incredibly unfair.

    In addition it might also happen that Kovtun skates well at Euros and then? Most probably the RF will then send him also to Worlds in case the spot is free. At least up to now there was no talk that there will be a skate off between Menshov and Kovtun which again is pretty much unfair, as of course Menshov did not get a chance to prove himself at Euros.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Plushenko talked about the WCH.

    Plushenko claims that he feels no pressure from the Russian Figure Skating Federation.

    “We have a great relationship,” he stated. “We will work things out. If am healthy enough, I may even make a trip to London, but health is the priority right now.”

    http://www.goldenskate.com/2012/12/e...2014-olympics/
    I believe this is code for "if you pay me enough, I will go to Worlds and save you the embarrassment".

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