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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Just this year he only got 4th at both grand prix competitions, didn't make it to the GPF and got 3rd by less than 2 and a half points at nationals. Kovtun won everything this year and was less than 2 and a half points away from a senior medal. If the top two are a lock to go and the third is picked because of who can do best, they picked the right guy. They have a much bigger picture to look at and Menshov just isn't that good to keep taking chances on him.
    At the Cup of Russia, Menshov competed with Chan, Kozuka and Brezina only finished ahead of him by less than a point. At Skate America he competed against Hanyu, Kozuka and a suprising Machida and if we only look at names he beat Verner, Brezina and Abbott. He did beat Brezina again at the NRW Trophy. At the Nebelhorn Trophy Menshov was only second to Oda. Kovtun competed in the JUNIOR circuit and it's true that he is very good but moving to seniors is a totally different story.

  2. #262

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    Andrei Simonenko weighs in on the Menshov-Kovtun decision in his blog: http://www.rsport.ru/blog_simonenko/...637481157.html

    More of Piseev's comments to the press: http://fcp-press.ru/interview/p2_articleid/6122

    Johnny Weir has even tweeted:
    "Support Kostya Menshov and his place in the European Championships next month." #заМеньшова (Twitter hash tag in support of Menshov)
    Last edited by Sylvia; 12-28-2012 at 07:01 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  3. #263

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaiKozOda View Post
    ...Kovtun competed in the JUNIOR circuit and it's true that he is very good but moving to seniors is a totally different story.
    You hit the nail on the head, moving to seniors is a big deal. The point of sending Kovtun is not that he can place higher than Menshov, it's that he needs the international exposure on the senior circuit and it will be of good use to him in the future. Menshov did well on the GP circuit, but would you expect him to medal at Euros?

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaiKozOda View Post
    At the Cup of Russia, Menshov competed with Chan, Kozuka and Brezina only finished ahead of him by less than a point. At Skate America he competed against Hanyu, Kozuka and a suprising Machida and if we only look at names he beat Verner, Brezina and Abbott. He did beat Brezina again at the NRW Trophy. At the Nebelhorn Trophy Menshov was only second to Oda. Kovtun competed in the JUNIOR circuit and it's true that he is very good but moving to seniors is a totally different story.
    Seniors is obviously much different; but enough jr. skaters have proven they can do it and Menshov hasn't been to Worlds either and the best he's done at Euros was 7th. If your only argument is that Menshov's competition from Japan and Canada was too tough and he 'almost' beat Brezina who also couldn't make the GPF, if we go by 'amosts' most podiums would have different people on them. It's not like they picked Dmitriev or Bush.

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by morqet View Post
    Vonorov would have had to finish in the top 10 to balance out Gachinski's awful effort in Nice, which would have required a total score of 4 more points than his previous personal best, where as the required total of 224+ points should have been well within Gachinski's capabilites.
    It should have been within Gachinski's capabilities to balance out Voronov's awful efforts in Nice, but it was a combined effort that lost the spots.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfisher View Post
    I suspect Menshov might make the World team since Plushenko has already stated he's not going.
    According to Eislauffan, at Nationals either Mishin or Plushenko (I'm not sure to which "he" Eislauffan was referring) said Plushenko might compete at Worlds if his condition is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvster View Post
    OTOH, Polina K. is also v. elegant but I've kinda given up on her already in her 2nd season as a senior. Poor girl! what a fleeting sport this is ...
    According to Anna Kondaurova's Ladies SP article on goldenskate, which Sylvia posted today, she was injured and had a growth spurt which has affected her balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    , the RSF will have the option to send Leonova/Makarova
    Makarova has yet to make the Worlds TES FS minimum, and unless there are so few qualifiers that the ISU adjusts the minimum down enough for her to qualify, she'd still have to compete at Senior B's until she made it.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Seniors is obviously much different; but enough jr. skaters have proven they can do it and Menshov hasn't been to Worlds either and the best he's done at Euros was 7th. If your only argument is that Menshov's competition from Japan and Canada was too tough and he 'almost' beat Brezina who also couldn't make the GPF, if we go by 'amosts' most podiums would have different people on them. It's not like they picked Dmitriev or Bush.
    My post comes in sequence with someone saying that Menshov "only" got 4th at his GP events. He faced a very difficult set of oponents there and showed he's competitive finishing ahead of some other skaters that have had a much better international career than him, namely Brezina, Abbott, Verner, etc. And it's a fact that he missed the podium at the COR for less than a point.
    Besides it's not a matter of that being my only argument or anybody else here that thinks Menshov earned his place for the euros. He finished ahead of Kovtun in the nationals and is having a nice season with consistent skates in the events he participated yet he was dropped by his own federation. That's the thing.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaiKozOda View Post
    My post comes in sequence with someone saying that Menshov "only" got 4th at his GP events. He faced a very difficult set of oponents there and showed he's competitive finishing ahead of some other skaters that have had a much better international career than him, namely Brezina, Abbott, Verner, etc. And it's a fact that he missed the podium at the COR for less than a point.
    Besides it's not a matter of that being my only argument or anybody else here that thinks Menshov earned his place for the euros. He finished ahead of Kovtun in the nationals and is having a nice season with consistent skates in the events he participated yet he was dropped by his own federation. That's the thing.
    Getting third doesn't guarantee you a spot on the team. I'm paraphrasing what Valentin Piseev said "Who prevented him from getting second place?"

    He's had plenty of years to set a precedence on his getting chosen. Kovtun only lost by less than 2.50, I would rather put my future team especially since how well he did in the beginning of the season-all golds. If he tanks, send Menshov but there is no reason to doubt their choice. I think it's a real shitty thing to do to a especially by your fellow skaters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeperryfan View Post
    You hit the nail on the head, moving to seniors is a big deal. The point of sending Kovtun is not that he can place higher than Menshov, it's that he needs the international exposure on the senior circuit and it will be of good use to him in the future. Menshov did well on the GP circuit, but would you expect him to medal at Euros?
    If Kovtun needs international exposure on the Senior circuit, then send him to a bunch of international "B"s.

    He's had two exposures to Seniors so far (WTT and Russian Nats) and he hasn't been up to the competition. Send him to Euros and Worlds when he's earned it. He sure didn't earn it at 2013 RN.

  9. #269
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    Kovtun is ranked 41st now, with a few Internationals before Euros. Of the skaters who are likely to compete at Euros, he should be in the Top 10, and I can't see him dropping below Top 12. Starting order for the SP shouldn't be an issue for him. Menshov doesn't even have that advantage over him, despite being ranked 13th. Voronov (44) should make Top 12, and even Plushenko might squeeze in. I didn't realize how heavily the WS were skewed towards 4C's eligible skaters, even if the majority of them can't compete due to per-country limits. Only Russian Men are affected by this for the Top 12 at Euros.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by julieann View Post
    Getting third doesn't guarantee you a spot on the team. I'm paraphrasing what Valentin Piseev said "Who prevented him from getting second place?"

    He's had plenty of years to set a precedence on his getting chosen. Kovtun only lost by less than 2.50, I would rather put my future team especially since how well he did in the beginning of the season-all golds. If he tanks, send Menshov but there is no reason to doubt their choice. I think it's a real shitty thing to do to a especially by your fellow skaters.
    And who prevented Kovtun from placing second or even third? He hasn't even competed at the senior level yet, he skated poorly both SP and LP at Nationals and still he is chosen for the team over the third place finisher who was consistent at GP series. Kovtun did not earn his spot and he got a gift from TAT. Tarasova's ambition is behind this decision.

  11. #271
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    I doubt that an individual skater's earned rights had anything to do with the decision. I suspect there is a great deal of pressure on the Russian skating fed to produce Olympic medals next year. for facilities, coaches and skater support may well be decided based on their results. That coaching panel looked beyond Europeans next month and decided where were the best places to put their assets. If the Olympics weren't next winter and weren't in Russia, I suspect there would have been no issues here. I don't blame them. I'd have made the same choice. Menshov could have beaten Voronov, and secured his spot, but he didn't. Voronov and Kovtun may well tank at Europeans and the fed will go with Menshov for Worlds. It remains to be seen what will happen. Who knows but Menshov might skate at Sochi one more time if Russia gets a 2nd spot. I think that would be awesome, but the fed will send the skaters they think have the best chance of a medal regardless of who they are.
    Those who never succeed themselves are always the first to tell you how.

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    I don't get it. Why is Kovtun considered the second best skater in Russia all of the sudden? Why all the other skaters are supposed to prove they are worthy by beating each other and placing second and if they don't it's automatically Kovtun who is replacing them? Can anyone explain? I only see one reason - Tarasova and her influence.

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I didn't realize how heavily the WS were skewed towards 4C's eligible skaters, even if the majority of them can't compete due to per-country limits.
    Interesting, I didn't know that either. I wonder why that would be. Didn't people used to complain that the world standings favored Euro skaters, because of the points available for winning a senior B, of which most are held in Europe? I guess the 4CC skaters have the advantage of sending 3 skaters per country no matter what (whereas at Euros the countries have to earn spots) to pick up a few championship points but could that make such a difference? Or maybe it's that you can only count points for one championship per season, and many of the 4CC countries send a different set of skaters to 4CC and Worlds.

  14. #274

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    Kovtun got all golds in JUNIOR competition. And in his junior events, he didn't get the huge PCS scores he got at RN.

    6.79 6.46 6.82 6.68 6.71 JGPF SP: stepout on the 3fe; all else clean
    7.82 7.57 7.64 8.00 7.86 RN SP: turnout on 4t, 3z↓, no combo

    7.14 6.71 7.21 7.04 6.89 JGPF FS: 4t+3t, 3a+3t, 3z, 3a, 3lo, 3fe, 3s+2t
    8.14 7.93 8.18 8.32 8.07 RN FS: 3s, 3t, 4t, 3a, 3lo, 3z, 3s+2t, 2a

    Kovtun was clearly held up on his PCS scores in both SP and FS at RN, or he would have finished much lower than fifth. Amazing that Tarasova holds that much influence over Russian judges.

  15. #275
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    Does Kovtun have another primary coach in addition to Tarasova? I didn't think she got so involved with individual skaters anymore; thought she was supposed to be more of a consultant to the entire team.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Does Kovtun have another primary coach in addition to Tarasova? I didn't think she got so involved with individual skaters anymore; thought she was supposed to be more of a consultant to the entire team.
    Elena Buianova, she coaches Sotnikova and Zaseeva as well, CSKA club. TAT is his secondary coach.

  17. #277

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    International vs. national PCS have no significance. Kovtun finished 15 points ahead of Sezganov who was 6th at Nationals. I'm not sure one can make the claim that Kovtun finished too high at Nationals. I think he and his skating is being vilified to make a point.

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    the thing is with Kovtun is they are plucking him prematurely for Seniors considering the state of Russian men
    he is a 2018 skater along with other younger Russian kids like Petrov and Samarin

    they are investing too much and putting all their eggs on Kovtun ? now where have we seen that before
    they should invest on the other kids too
    Samarin has nice flow on his jumps, 3lz-3T is solid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVFjS8Maa0w
    Petrov can get consistent on his 3A as he is only 13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7Qi5733yHM
    Last edited by love_skate2011; 12-28-2012 at 08:49 PM.

  19. #279
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    I don't think the three-per-country rule impacts the Men, because, at least recently, Japan, the US, and Canada would have earned three spots anyway, and the Chinese two most years, along with Kazakstan (Denis Ten). While the top European men may consistently beat all but the top US and Canadian men and the lesser-ranked Japanese Men and all of the Chinese Men, there's just not a lot of depth in European Men's skating, and a couple of 4ths alone in Senior B's won't cut it when the same men -- Amodio, Joubert, Verner, Brezina, Contesti and Van der Perren (until they retired), Fernandez, and, until he was injured, Schultheiss -- get multiple GP's and championship spots, along with a Senior B warm-up or two, racking up the rankings points along the way. There's usually a skater or two behind them, but not a big field.

    The US and Men, and apart from Chan, the Canadian Men might not be winning medals, but they do well enough at Worlds and 4C's to get GP events for Top 12 Worlds, Top 24 SB and WS, plus there are host spots. The Chinese Men have their host spots and 4C's, and the Japanese Fed has been assigning more of their competitive mid-rank skaters to Senior B's and has spread the 4C's wealth (until this year, with 4C's in Japan) to get more skaters those Top 24 SB scores. Senior B's are now more universally important for making minimum championships TES scores as well. The Russian Men have been more in the US Men's shape when Plushenko doesn't skate: intermittent brilliance, but a lot of mid-pack skating that earns GP and last spots at championships, in addition to host picks.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #280
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    It's not a matter of people not liking Kovtun; it's a matter that, he didn't earn this gift from TAT. As others pointed out, he's done fine in JUNIOR events; shorter length of programs, fewer elements required. If he was really up to competing with the big guns, he would have beaten Menshov at nationals, but he didn't. He couldn't pull it out at his own nationals, where he (and most) get joke PCS scores and he has one of the most influential of coaches in his corner. He couldn't get the job done. So yes, send him to some senior B's for experience before next year and send the skater who has had a consistent, if not stellar, season to the Europeans that most fans and skaters feel he has earned. If Plush and Voronov are there to assure the three spots for next season and the third place person is just someone to go along, why the hell not Menshov? And if the third place person is only going for their own personal glory, again, why the hell not Menshov? He's earned it by working so hard and long to the point that he's a more complete and consistent skater now than he was 10 years ago. Let the old man have his damn glory. And let the kid earn his chance, like everyone else.
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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