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  1. #541
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    Well yeah but you can't have it both ways. Either you only take Nationals' results into consideration or you leave a door open and then that creates a situation of uncertainty.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAHbKA View Post
    Actually I was surprised how easy going Mishin is. Especially if you are a cute enough female and his pupil had a good skate. He'll behave like a favourite grandpa
    I don't qualify as a cute enough female, though
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  3. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I don't quite understand what the purpose of the Russian Cup Final is. I've read that Menshov won this competition five times but was never sent to Worlds. Piseev said that the Federation would assess, after the Russian Cup Final, all the results of the skaters under consideration from the current season and would decide accordingly but do the skaters know how much the results from the Russian Cup will weigh in the assessment of the Federation, as opposed to the results from other competitions such as GP, JGP, Nationals and Euros? I mean would Menshov win the Russian Cup again, would his win be viewed as a better result than Kovtun's 5th place overall at Europeans? The Federation can't assess the results of the likes of Menshov and Gachinski at the 2013 European Championships since they didn't even compete there, can they?
    I think I know what you mean and Japan had something like this in 2006. It was a points system with skaters receiving different points for different national and international results. They knew exactly how much everything was weighted. Miki Ando finished off the podium at Nationals, but got just the placement she needed to get the points to go to the Olympics, which everyone thought was rigged and was so awful and unfair to Nakano. France had something similar too, and gave Contesti the spot based on the criteria, but Dambier sued and won the Olympic spot. So someone will always end up unhappy.

    I do agree that it must be frustrating for someone like Menshov. The federation's criteria are loose in the sense that it's "let's see how you skate at the Russian Cup Final and we'll see how we like it/you compared to how we liked Kovtun at Euros." It isn't like "win the Russian Cup Final with xxx TES score and you get Worlds."

    The goalpost is, and always has been, win stuff internationally and the federation will give you additional chances for Worlds even if you screw up Nationals (which isn't necessarily a bad idea or unfair).

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    France hasn't got something similar, there are no points given whatsoever ! AT ALL. We have test skates. Those test are made to select whoever is in favor with the FFSG at the appointed moment, especially if you're a pupil of dear dear Annick. Or whoever can serve better the president's goal meaning his reelection at the head of the FFSG. Usually, the selection is right in the end. But it's quite hard for the skaters who achieved a good placement at nationals and end up nowhere.
    poths Void: MarieM carries a rusty old blade in her handbag!

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarieM View Post
    France hasn't got something similar, there are no points given whatsoever ! AT ALL. We have test skates. Those test are made to select whoever is in favor with the FFSG at the appointed moment, especially if you're a pupil of dear dear Annick. Or whoever can serve better the president's goal meaning his reelection at the head of the FFSG. Usually, the selection is right in the end. But it's quite hard for the skaters who achieved a good placement at nationals and end up nowhere.
    I know it's usually not points, but I thought in 2006 only there was something like that - maybe not points, but some kind of criteria that was set up with more detail than usual for France, but still didn't work out for the athletes. I could be misremembering completely, though.

    ETA: For those with access to the archives, here is a post about it. The two best CoP scores for each guy would be combined and the top 3 got Euros, which would be a qualifier to the Olympics. Drama ensued because Contesti had beaten Dambier in all or most of their head to heads, but did not get named to the Euro team based on the criteria, so the federation, of course, mandated a test skate anyway.
    Last edited by Cherub721; 01-30-2013 at 01:00 PM.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    I don't quite understand what the purpose of the Russian Cup Final is. I've read that Menshov won this competition five times but was never sent to Worlds. Piseev said that the Federation would assess, after the Russian Cup Final, all the results of the skaters under consideration from the current season and would decide accordingly but do the skaters know how much the results from the Russian Cup will weigh in the assessment of the Federation, as opposed to the results from other competitions such as GP, JGP, Nationals and Euros? I mean would Menshov win the Russian Cup again, would his win be viewed as a better result than Kovtun's 5th place overall at Europeans? The Federation can't assess the results of the likes of Menshov and Gachinski at the 2013 European Championships since they didn't even compete there, can they?
    Importance of Russia cup only comes after the Europeans. For instance last year at Russian Nationals Menshov was 7th, so Russia selected their 3 athletes based on the nationals result for the Europeans 1) Plushenko (gold at Europeans) 2) Gachinski (2nd at Europeans) 3) Voronov (10th at Europeans ). this result was good enough for Gachinski and 10th was deemed good enough for the europeans, remember Menshov winning the Russia cup is not just the criteria, but how he wins it also important. When Menshov won the russian national championships, he was sent to the europeans where he bombed the SP and lost to very young Gachinski. I am also shocked at what people are now suggesting, they want to sent Menshov ahead of Voronov to the worlds, remember Voronov beat Menshov very, very comfortably. Menshov was only very able to beat Gashinski and Kovtun.


    Russians have used this method of selection for championships for few years, remember when Leonova was given the second european spot over Petushkova in 2009, even though Petushkova beaten her at the nationals. Leonova had lost to Gerboldt (3rd at Nationals ) and Petushkova (4th at nationals), Federation but decided to pass Petushkova and gave the spot to relative youngster with promise, Leonova. Leonova finsihed 4th at the Europeans and won the world juniors to win the lone spot for Russia at the worlds. Was it not unfair to Petushkova (). They have used this system very effective to monitor the progress of young athletes. In a country like Russia, where federation is paying for everything, I think rules to monitor the athletes is very fair. I would rather see this than the performance of Alissa at the last world championships or Flatt a year before that.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by peibeck View Post
    To me it sounds like Gorshkov is denying the rumor Plushenko would compete at Worlds?
    According to this article, Plushy anyway can not compete in March since he's going to have artificial disc replacement surgery tomorrow in Tel Aviv. Mishin told Plushy will be able to swim and walk four weeks after surgery. I wish him successful surgery and complete healing.

    http://ria.ru/sport/20130130/920530714.html

  8. #548
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7J7fEiHGM
    Bobrova and Soloviev have a new exhibition!

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glacier cat View Post
    According to this article, Plushy anyway can not compete in March since he's going to have artificial disc replacement surgery tomorrow in Tel Aviv. Mishin told Plushy will be able to swim and walk four weeks after surgery. I wish him successful surgery and complete healing.

    http://ria.ru/sport/20130130/920530714.html
    Tomorrow? I guess it is just as well that he not do the Art on Ice shows, but I feel badly for his fans that were hoping to see him.

    I wish him luck with his surgery too.
    I meant to take the high road.... but I missed the exit.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    I think I know what you mean and Japan had something like this in 2006. It was a points system with skaters receiving different points for different national and international results. They knew exactly how much everything was weighted. Miki Ando finished off the podium at Nationals, but got just the placement she needed to get the points to go to the Olympics, which everyone thought was rigged and was so awful and unfair to Nakano. France had something similar too, and gave Contesti the spot based on the criteria, but Dambier sued and won the Olympic spot. So someone will always end up unhappy.

    I do agree that it must be frustrating for someone like Menshov. The federation's criteria are loose in the sense that it's "let's see how you skate at the Russian Cup Final and we'll see how we like it/you compared to how we liked Kovtun at Euros." It isn't like "win the Russian Cup Final with xxx TES score and you get Worlds."

    The goalpost is, and always has been, win stuff internationally and the federation will give you additional chances for Worlds even if you screw up Nationals (which isn't necessarily a bad idea or unfair).
    Exactly. And if you think that Federation officials and other people involved in the Russian figure skating such as Averbukh defended the Fed's decision to send Kovtun to Euros over Menshov by saying something along the lines of "Menshov? Oh, he is such a nice skater but let's face it, he isn't getting any younger", just give Menshov a good reason why he should compete at the Russian Cup Final and fight for gold there other than possibly the prize money. I mean would he suddenly get a few years younger if he won the RCF?

    Urmanov was recently asked by a reporter which one singles skater from Russia he thought would most deserve to go to the World Championships and Urmanov replied "Today - only Maxim Kovtun."

    http://fcp-press.ru/interview/p2_articleid/6348

    Isn't it interesting that while Voronov is the national silver medalist and Kovtun finished off the podium in Sochi, Urmanov isn't even considering Sergei as a possible option?

  11. #551
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    Can Kovtun got to JW and senior Worlds and does the fed encourage this? Or will he do one and not the other, and if so, which one? He did very well at Euros despite Zayaking, and his PCS were quite good too! I agree he is the future of Russian men's skating and should cause a buzz in Sochi next season, but I just worry about him getting burnt out if he does JW and senior Worlds after already competing at Euros. Maybe Kovtun and his coaches will be given the choice to decide which competition he goes to?

    Also I hope Nikol goes to Worlds, she was really lovely at Euros and if Leonova cannot skate well now, I don't see why Gosviani shouldn't be sent to the Worlds as well. The fed will be relying on Liza and Adelina to get 3 spots so it's not like Nikol is in a really high pressure situation anyhow.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    France had something similar too, and gave Contesti the spot based on the criteria, but Dambier sued and won the Olympic spot.
    That's not correct.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    Importance of Russia cup only comes after the Europeans. For instance last year at Russian Nationals Menshov was 7th, so Russia selected their 3 athletes based on the nationals result for the Europeans 1) Plushenko (gold at Europeans) 2) Gachinski (2nd at Europeans) 3) Voronov (10th at Europeans ). this result was good enough for Gachinski and 10th was deemed good enough for the europeans, remember Menshov winning the Russia cup is not just the criteria, but how he wins it also important. When Menshov won the russian national championships, he was sent to the europeans where he bombed the SP and lost to very young Gachinski.
    If Menshov wins the Russian Cup with poor skates, it means his rivals were disastrous and Konstantin should still prevail, no?

    When Menshov won Nationals a couple of years ago, Gachinski bombed his SP there, so the two were even at the end of the day.

    Was it not unfair to Petushkova (). They have used this system very effective to monitor the progress of young athletes. In a country like Russia, where federation is paying for everything, I think rules to monitor the athletes is very fair. I would rather see this than the performance of Alissa at the last world championships or Flatt a year before that.
    Yeah but if I were a skater, I'd much prefer a selection system which is transparent and predictable to any other system because I would know what to expect from my Federation. But so long as the Federation foots my training bill, it's pretty obvious I am hardly in a position to choose at all. End of story.

  14. #554

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Exactly. And if you think that Federation officials and other people involved in the Russian figure skating such as Averbukh defended the Fed's decision to send Kovtun to Euros over Menshov by saying something along the lines of "Menshov? Oh, he is such a nice skater but let's face it, he isn't getting any younger", just give Menshov a good reason why he should compete at the Russian Cup Final and fight for gold there other than possibly the prize money. I mean would he suddenly get a few years younger if he won the RCF?

    Urmanov was recently asked by a reporter which one singles skater from Russia he thought would most deserve to go to the World Championships and Urmanov replied "Today - only Maxim Kovtun."

    http://fcp-press.ru/interview/p2_articleid/6348

    Isn't it interesting that while Voronov is the national silver medalist and Kovtun finished off the podium in Sochi, Urmanov isn't even considering Sergei as a possible option?
    It's all because Urmanov is Mad that sergei left him and wants to destroy him!!! Lol no but voronov was at 2012 worlds too and he bombed too. Gachinski gets the blame with reason because he was world bronze medalist but voronov was there too because of gachinski. so kovtun is the best shot and then maybe menshov and after that no one is age eligible because gachinski is out to recover.
    Last edited by caseyedwards; 01-31-2013 at 09:10 AM.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    I would rather see this than the performance of Alissa at the last world championships or Flatt a year before that.
    Very good point. It's a trade off. The rules are less clear for the athletes but since you're constantly monitored you avoid a situation when somebody has one good skate at Nationals but is just not in good enough shape immediately preceding a major event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    If Menshov wins the Russian Cup with poor skates, it means his rivals were disastrous and Konstantin should still prevail, no?

    When Menshov won Nationals a couple of years ago, Gachinski bombed his SP there, so the two were even at the end of the day.



    Yeah but if I were a skater, I'd much prefer a selection system which is transparent and predictable to any other system because I would know what to expect from my Federation. But so long as the Federation foots my training bill, it's pretty obvious I am hardly in a position to choose at all. End of story.
    Not only athletes compete at Russia cup, it is not Russia Nationals part 2... so this year likes of Kovtun won't compete. Last year Gachinski did not have to compete at the Russia cup event due to his results at the Europeans. Russia cup is one of many events they look at while selecting the team for worlds. A very strong performance at Europeans always helps you cause for the worlds, a good showing at Junior worlds can help your chances as well. Russia cup is also used to see who is best prepared at the moment.

    As for Urmanov's comments, the same thing can be said about Morosov's comments. Kovtun was an athlete who was thrown out of Morosov's group and now he has proved himself with a Junior Grand Prix final gold and a 5th position at the Europeans.

  17. #557

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj7J7fEiHGM
    Bobrova and Soloviev have a new exhibition!
    Thankyou .Nice to see Bobrova strutting her stuff shame about the fall and the last lift looked a little awkward.A nice change for them .

  18. #558

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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Yeah but if I were a skater, I'd much prefer a selection system which is transparent and predictable to any other system because I would know what to expect from my Federation. But so long as the Federation foots my training bill, it's pretty obvious I am hardly in a position to choose at all. End of story.
    Yes, but one only has to look at the scoring of US Nationals, and wonder how transparent the US system really is. Seems to me that the US judges do their best to ensure they get the teams they want. (Look at the ladies scoring)

    At least the Russians are honest that they are taking more competitions into account, and as mentioned they pay for training.

  19. #559
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    Any word on Gosviani? I love her skating and thought she was great at Euros. So hope she goes to Worlds!

  20. #560

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    Apologies if this has already been posted - new article entitled: 'Russia’s figure skating team comes up on top at 2013 championships'

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