Krylova & Ovsiannikov ?

[lulu]

Another "what if" thread
If Anjelika didn't have her back injury, do you think K&O would have continued to compete up through Salt Lake City? If so, how would they have fared against A&P? I like both teams, and IIRC, K&O won the 1999 World Title in a 5/4 split over A&P. Do you think K&O and A&P would have switched titles, with FP-M also in the mix, between 2000-2002, or do you think one team would have dominated over the other? Likewise, in this hypothetical scenario, how would K&O have fared against FP-M in 2001?

[judgejudy27]

A&P would have won in 2000 for sure. Their Carmina Burana was better than K&O's (shown in pro events the next year), GP final and Worlds were both in France, and A&P would have had everyone on their side and K&O been temporarily treated as those big bad Russians (a stigma we often seen created in this sport in the 6.0 days) after the controversies over the 99 results, all going in K&O's favor by a 5-4 split.

After that I have no idea really. Overall I think K&O are the better technical team and also are artistically strong even if their choreography is often not as good as A&P, so they might have regained control in 2001 and 2002 but it is hard to say for certain. What I am pretty sure of is Fusar Poli & Margalio would have never reached the top, well unless they stayed in past SLC waiting for everyone else to retire like both Lobacheva & Averbuhk and Bourne & kraatz did, nor probably won any of the 2001 Europeans, GP final, and Worlds all which they won. With no dominant Russian team near the top it became about the 98 bloc judges paying back old debts, FP&M's World title being compensation to Italy for helping with the 98 bloc judging. Anissina & Peizerat also got bored due to their very one sided dominance in 2000 and clearly were unprepared and far from their best in the 00-2001 season, although did get it back together enough for Worlds they should have won. This would not have happened with K&O around either, as even if they swept the 99-2000 season A&P would never get complacent with a team like that around. Also quite possible if A&P did not win in SLC they themselves might have even stuck around for 2006, and if they did their chances would have been up against the teams that emerged that quad.

If I had to guess it would be A&P sweeping the 99/2000 season with all the factors going in their favor as I mentioned. K&P coming back in 2000/2001, losing 1 of the GP final or Europeans to A&P but still winning Worlds, despite A&P skating at a much higher level than they actually did in 2000/2001. Then in the Olympic season A&P coming back somewhat, and the Olympic Gold close to a toss up, but leaning 60-40 in favor of K&O maybe. If K&O did win A&P continuing to 2006, and Navka & Kostomarov's possibly winning no major titles now up to and including Turin, and instead winning the 06 and 07 Worlds at Denkova & Stayviski's expense, then retiring as the Russian fed. give them a strong hint Domnina & Shabalin are about to overtake them (similar to how L&A retired after 2003, probably sensing N&K would soon overtake them if they continued), and at long last everything proceeding as it has from there.

[Cherub721]

Anissina & Peizerat also got bored due to their very one sided dominance in 2000 and clearly were unprepared and far from their best in the 00-2001 season, although did get it back together enough for Worlds they should have won. This would not have happened with K&O around either, as even if they swept the 99-2000 season A&P would never get complacent with a team like that around.

That is really interesting. I've never thought of it that way. ITA that A&P would've won the Carmina showdown in 2000, but my next thought was "well, Beethoven's Last Night wasn't that good, so K&O would've won that year" It never occurred to me that A&P would've had a better dance/skated better if K&O were there. They probably would not have lost to FP&M at all.

I guess the "right answer" is that K&O win in SLC, because L&A lost on a 5-4 split, and K&O are supposed to be a "classic" Russian team, and should be able to get that extra vote to win. But I don't know... A&P were so strong in 2002, especially in the OD, and Linichuk could've gone for some very crazy and wrong choreography for K&O (not everyone appreciated Carmen or African Drums). Linichuk likes to pull antics like skipping the GP, so what if K&O didn't show up til Euros and everyone hated their FD, and they had no time to change it? Would she have given them the L&A Time for Peace FD? Would it have been better performed by K&O, or would Krylova's expression make people find it even more offensive?

I liked the Dr. Zhivago piece K&O did as pros... that would've been a nice Olympics FD, very Russian too.

Also, is it fair for us to assume that if K&O stayed, she's perfectly healthy and they skate well? What if they ended up more like DomShabs, barely able to skate for a medal? (I know lulu's post was what if she never had the back injury... just thinking aloud .

[Vash01]

K&O and A&P were both great ID teams, but I think K&O were slightly better in their skating skills and speed. I loved their long lines and unison. IMO A&P would have probably won the 2000 worlds with Carmina Burana, but there was no guarantee they would continue to win all the way through SLC Olympics. Their FD in 2002 was not as good as their 2000 FD (even the 2001 FD was not as good as the 2000 one), and they were beatable. A strong team like K&O would have pushed them to skate better, but K&O may still have come on top. It would have been a much more interesting competition, that's for sure, regardless of who won.

[Twilight1]

Krylova and Ovsiannikov tamed down their CB program for world pros so we have no idea what it would have looked like if they competed in amateur. Also, they were solid in their original dances and A&P were weaker in that area for the Latin OD. Didn't F-P&M win the OD at World's? I can't remember.

K&O were really good at compulsory dances too. I think K&O would have won the CD's and the OD and may have lost the FD but still they would have won overall.

[lulu]

It's interesting how one simple scenario-an ice dance team continuing their career for two more years has the potential to utterly change the medal standings of other teams even after they retired.

I agree that with K&O still in the game, and still presumably at peak, or near peak ability, A&P would have been pushed to improve technically and artistically. All the same, I think A&P would have also forced K&O to improve and maintain their skills as well. K&O spent their careers as perpetual bridesmaids to G&P (and not without justification-G&P's 1997 OD/FD and 1998 FD were amazing), but I can see K&O, after emerging from G&P's shadow, not wanting to lose that spot to another team.

[blue_idealist]

This could be totally off base, but I always thought they were far superior to A&P and would have defeated them in everything if they had stayed in competition. I think they with A&P would have been the two top teams and not so much notice would have been taken of Fusar-Poli and Margaglio.. meaning it would be unlikely that FP&M ever got a world title. They might have been bumped off the 2002 Olympic podium as well (one could only wish, with that horrid FS).

[Proustable]

I tend to agree with the general response

a) They would have forced each other to be better

b) The 2000/2001 season would've actually been a fight between the two - I think A/P win Euros and K/O win Worlds.

c) L/A would never have a won a world title (they totally would have been leapfrogged by N/K). FP/M might have in 2002 or 2003, though I expect A/P stick around a couple more seasons and grab a second/third world title.

[judgejudy27]

I tend to agree with the general response

a) They would have forced each other to be better

b) The 2000/2001 season would've actually been a fight between the two - I think A/P win Euros and K/O win Worlds.

c) L/A would never have a won a world title (they totally would have been leapfrogged by N/K). FP/M might have in 2002 or 2003, though I expect A/P stick around a couple more seasons and grab a second/third world title.

True, I didnt think of that. With K/O around all those years L/A probably remain obscured, quite possibly never even win a World medal, and Navka & Kostomarov are probably pushed past them as early as 2002.

Does anyone think if A/P didnt win the 02 Olympics they would have stayed around for 2006 though?

[Cherub721]

True, I didnt think of that. With K/O around all those years L/A probably remain obscured, quite possibly never even win a World medal, and Navka & Kostomarov are probably pushed past them as early as 2002.

And if L&A don't win a world title, then Averbukh does not have as much credibility in the skating world, and may never be able to found his own tour, and then produce a TV show that brings Zhulin and other top coaches back to Russia, and inspires a new generation of Russian skaters...

Does anyone think if A/P didnt win the 02 Olympics they would have stayed around for 2006 though?

Anissina would be 30, Peizerat 33... I guess it's possible, but it's so weird to think of them competing under CoP.

[Macassar88]

It would have been very interesting. I loved K/O so much. I agree with many of the posts above but I disagree that A/P would have continued to 2006. I don't think they would have been able to adapt to CoP. They had really really slow spins and were getting a bit old to make the necessary changes to all the elements.

[vivika1982]

We will never know but there is nothing wrong with using our imagination. The Ice Dance as we know it would be totally different and they would push the other teams to the max.
1/ I guess for 2000 would’ve been a tie between the two Carmina Burana’s. I mean K/O’s version was great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea1qicN187Q
Well, it wasn’t as goosebumps awesome and passionate as A/P but performing at Gala’s and competing/improving through the whole season is two different things .And let’s face it, when it comes to passion Angelica always delivers 200% .
2/ I love A/P Flamenco but when I look at K/O fiery performance I believe they would’ve won in 2002 as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyAcwngqas
A/P would get the silver and L/A the bronze.
4/ Marina’s ambitions would’ve pushed A/P until 2006 OG, win the gold without a doubt, get full set of Olympic medals and made Ice Dance competition more interesting and intriguing. CoP ??? Pshh, If less talented teams were able to adapt to this system, it should’ve been piece of cake for Marina and Gwendal.
5/Not sure about L/A and N/K’s placement and who will bump who in the corner but one way or another Averbukh still would get his showbiz on track.
6/Navka will try to get rewarded at 2006 WC but D/S still will … and my imagination stops here

[Susan M]

Overall I think K&O are the better technical team and also are artistically strong even if their choreography is often not as good as A&P, so they might have regained control in 2001 and 2002 but it is hard to say for certain. What I am pretty sure of is Fusar Poli & Margalio would have never reached the top,

I think you got it exactly right with this assessment,

but not this one

then retiring as the Russian fed. give them a strong hint Domnina & Shabalin are about to overtake them

Domina/Shabs were never really in the class with Navka/K. Domina's skating was alwasy a bit heavy and she lacks that look-at-me "it" factor. (To make matters worse, her answer to the lack of natural star quality was badly bleached hair and an unfortunate excess of mugging.) I do think young Shabs was a more stylish and naturally gifted skater than Kostamarov, until he was hampered by chronic knee problems. As a team, though, Dom/Shabs just never looked like worthy successors to Klimova/P, Usova/Z, Grushuk/P, etc. IMO, it was their relative weakness that made room for the rise of the North American teams. So, no, I don't think the Russians would have been so silly as to push Navka/K into retirement. (At least, I have always assumed they know their business better than to run off a #1 team as long as they are winning everything in sight.)

[judgejudy27]

Well in my proposed scenario of A&P staying until 2006 I dont think N&K are winning everything in sight. Meanwhile if A&P dont stay until 2006, N&K are still winning all in sight, and would have no reason to skate past 2006 just as they didnt anyway.

[Twilight1]

I would have been interesting to see a rivalry develop between N&K and A&P going into 2006. They started in the senior ranks together and were the same ages.

[Susan M]

Meanwhile if A&P dont stay until 2006, N&K are still winning all in sight, and would have no reason to skate past 2006 just as they didn't anyway.

Yes, but here, as in real life, they retire on their own terms. My disagreement was with the suggestion they would be pushed out by the Russian federation to make room for a markedly weaker team. IMO the Russians would have been trying to talk them into staying in, if anything.

[judgejudy27]

Domnina & Shabalin I always found quite mediocre but when healthy that is not how judges, the Russian federation or anyone apparently viewed them. Had N&K not won a major title after Turin had finished, which they might not have had A&P continued all the way to Turin, the Russian fed. might well have looked to D&S over them to the future in that case.

Navka & Kostomarov are also a much weaker than usual top Russian team, their dominance was based on the weak field from 04-06. Their main compeition was Denkova & Stayviski who came from a tiny federation and were screwed out of beating N&K often in many peoples views, Belbin & Agosto who would never win a major title even when it was wide open to them in 08 and 09, and Delobel & Schoenfelder who managed only 1 World or Olympic medal their whole career, and that was to be years after N&K retired. They certainly arent a Gritschuk & Platov, Krylova & Ovsiannikov, Usova & Zhulin, Klimova & Ponomarenko, or Bestiamanova & Bukin either. Put them in another era and they probably dont win anything, and they probably are never Russian #1 if any era before 2004 (just like Domnina & Shabalin wouldnt be either).

[sykr]

This is a really interesting question, I have to add my point of view, (even if my English is really bad, so sorry for it)
Do I think K/O would win in 2001 and 2002 ? Yes. Do I think it would be completely deserved? Not really. I really don't think their skating is so supperior to A/P. I still think A/P incredibly wuzrobbed in 1999. In reality, K/O's African free dance looked quitte difficult, but if you look only on the footwork and not the crazy facial expressions,...there's nothing really so difficult. I'd say it was actually easier than MITIM. As for 2000, that's the question. I think A/P would probably win as Worlds took place in France, but who knows what would happen. As for them being second in the original dance, Gwendal made a big mistake. K/O and especially Krylova had great lines and her long legs made a big favour for her for sur. But sometimes, I felt like her posture and extentions and especially expressions were forced and unnatural and at the end, I much prefer Anissina with her shorter legs, but natural, refined and finished moves. As for the partners, I was hardly noticing Ovsianikov, while Peizerat seemed to me like a great partner, who made the couple even more special with his natural elegance and flexibility.
I was comparing the 3 programs both couples skated to the same music and I have to say I like equally their Masquarade waltz dances. I would probably prefer K/O's, but the things I mentioned before really bother me on K/O's version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn-g0C6IJpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtcrMzot9hc
As for Carmina's, I think it can't even be compared, A/P's is much more original and music much better used. And as for Sing Sing Sing...well, I find Anjelika simply ridiculous and laughable in this dance, while I find A/P's dance really well done, cute and in the style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKrmQXKaWG4 (A/P at the begining, K/O at 11:30 )
But it's not like I don't recognize K/O (I love their Carmen very much), it's just I like A/P more.

Also, I love many A/P's original dances, particulary the ones form 1995, 1997, 1998 (I think they had stunning jive, better than K/O), 1999 latter version, 2000 and 2001 (both versions weren't bad, it just needed some more time and not changing it so quickly) and of course 2002. I don't know from where it comes people say they had weak OD's. And I also don't get how they can be considered not really technicaly good couple. Just watch A/P' CDs form SLC

I'm quitte sur A/P wouldn't stay till 2006, they made it clear the 2002 will be their last season, no matter what the result will be. But I'm sur the transition to COP wouldn't be such a problem for them. I think it's actually the skaters from 1998 to 2002 who went through the biggest changes. Firstly the OD became completely free in 1998, then new compulsory elements, such as side by side footwork, appeared in 2000. The same thing happened with free dances...the spins, step sequences and twizzles became compulsory. A/P may looked quitte unprepared in 2001, but wow, their dances were twice more difficult than the rest of the field. Just watch their twizzles in BLN and compare it to F-P/M's,... It's not difficult to make some mistakes if you force yourself to do something difficult and unique. I think it's similar to V/M this season, they're not perfect yet, which is quitte logical as their dance is very demanding and I think the same happened with A/P's Beethowen.
The last thing I'd add...I remember in 2006, Czech TV showed A/P's Liberta and our international judge, who was also in SLC, was commenting. She said that with some small changes, most of A/P'S elements could be level 4 in Tourin, which really surprised me, but if you watch it, they really did already everything, twizzles, spins with change of position, lifts, step sequences... But I'm really happy they didn't have to wait till 2006, because I think they would kill one another by then, they were much better in shows

[Cherub721]

sykr, I totally agree with everything you said.

[lulu]

Thanks for the post sykr. BTW, your English is great.

ETA: speaking of Carmen, and I love K&O's Carmen too, I think A&P could have performed a fantabulous Carmen. I would have loved to have seen that Battle of the Carmens.