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  1. #81

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    Im glad the judges were biased towards Mao. About time they favoured one of my favourites!

    More cheating for Mao!

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Probably same thing as Plushenko when he got his first world bronze medal with 3 hard falls in a relatively weak competition, his fans are so proud of him, keep saying he's a male version of Tara Lipinski, and then when talk about the competitions between Yagudin and him, they keep saying that oh, he's 3 years younger than Yagudin(actually less than 3 years), LOL
    You still have been hurt by the fact that Yagudin was struggling with a 3 years younger rival when God was 20 - 22, peak age in general? Oh..


    By the way, I don't want to say this, but I do, because you howl like a mad to say how you believe Yagudin could do anything better than Plush even if he had an inborn problem. I really feel sorry he had a problem but you should accept it was his limit of talent. Or you believe Stephen Hawking could win Olympics if he had a healthy body? No. Problem is fate. The same as limit of talent. And his pain in the hip joint became serious was from the season of 2001-2002. Not since 1980 or 1998.

    And you believe Plushy was a male Lipinski. So what do you think about his European silver medal at age 15 and World silver medal at age 16? Do you think there was no competitors? Only a year later, he became a serious competitor? Oh that's a great talent.
    If Plushy won only once like Gachinski, I could understand your point. But Plushy is doing great since he made senior debut.
    Last edited by Glacier cat; 11-28-2012 at 06:43 AM.

  3. #83

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    Has anyone yet defended Mao's FS marks at NHK? I didn't read through the entire thread on the NHK forum but from I saw, there only one very mildly defensive post of her. I usually listen to informed arguments both pro and con a skater's marks. But this to me was one of the more clear wuzgifted skates. Poor Mao looked totally embarrassed.

    However, it has no bearing on Plush's placement in 2010.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glacier cat View Post
    Oh. This loyal Yagudin's fan still has been hurt by the fact that her God was struggling with a 3 years younger rival when God was 20 - 22, peak age in general.
    No matter. Unicorn is the only way he can be happy. If In any thread we write about Plushy, Unicorn appears, and speaks about Yagudin: he is far better as Plushy..Funny...

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Has anyone yet defended Mao's FS marks at NHK? I didn't read through the entire thread on the NHK forum but from I saw, there only one very mildly defensive post of her. I usually listen to informed arguments both pro and con a skater's marks. But this to me was one of the more clear wuzgifted skates. Poor Mao looked totally embarrassed.

    However, it has no bearing on Plush's placement in 2010.
    I love, love , love Mao. I adore his LP!!!! But in this case Akiko was robbed..

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Has anyone yet defended Mao's FS marks at NHK? I didn't read through the entire thread on the NHK forum but from I saw, there only one very mildly defensive post of her. I usually listen to informed arguments both pro and con a skater's marks. But this to me was one of the more clear wuzgifted skates. Poor Mao looked totally embarrassed.

    However, it has no bearing on Plush's placement in 2010.
    Who said anything about Plush's placement in 2010?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    No matter. Unicorn is the only way he can be happy. If In any thread we write about Plushy, Unicorn appears, and speaks about Yagudin: he is far better as Plushy..Funny...
    Oh, you quoted my first post. So, my effort to make my post more polite doesn't work anymore! Lol

    I see. Maybe he/she lives still in SLC era.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    Who said anything about Plush's placement in 2010?
    Perhaps I assumed wrongly - I thought Mishin's comments were connected, at least by implication, with the view that Plush wuzrobbed in 2010.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Perhaps I assumed wrongly - I thought Mishin's comments were connected, at least by implication, with the view that Plush wuzrobbed in 2010.
    No, Mishins's comments have nothing to do with Plushenko, but threads without Plushenko are boring so people have to mention him all the time.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glacier cat View Post
    You still have been hurt by the fact that Yagudin was struggling with a 3 years younger rival when God was 20 - 22, peak age in general? Oh..


    By the way, I don't want to say this, but I do, because you howl like a mad to say how you believe Yagudin could do anything better than Plush even if he had an inborn problem. I really feel sorry he had a problem but you should accept it was his limit of talent. Or you believe Stephen Hawking could win Olympics if he had a healthy body? No. Problem is fate. The same as limit of talent. And his pain in the hip joint became serious was from the season of 2001-2002. Not since 1980 or 1998.

    And you believe Plushy was a male Lipinski. So what do you think about his European silver medal at age 15 and World silver medal at age 16? Do you think there was no competitors? Only a year later, he became a serious competitor? Oh that's a great talent.
    If Plushy won only once like Gachinski, I could understand your point. But Plushy is doing great since he made senior debut.


    Oops, seems someone got hurt too. To tell you the truth, I was deeply hurt by the fact that Yagudin struggled to win one OGM and four World titles before his hip got totally damaged(If that makes you happier). I know that little age difference relieved your pain greatly in 2002 and it seems you still need that. And I know you certainly have tons of other excuses. Usually, the more excuses someone looks for, deeper the wound was.
    Last edited by unicorn; 11-28-2012 at 04:41 PM.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by lala View Post
    You don't know, the Russian Federation wanted to enter for the Oly Plushy, not Yag in 1998. But Mishin said Yag is the next. I really don't understand you, nobody wants belittle Yagudin greatness, but you are always harsh on Plush.
    But i think Kulik was the winner in 1998. And anybody says I'm the uber ?
    Dear lala, it seems you know ME better than your idol. Let me just give you some statistics. Before the 1998 winter Olympics, Yagudin won the 1996-97 world bronze medal, won two 1997-98 GP events while Plushenko won 2 second places, placed 2nd after Kulik in RN, won the Euro championship, placed ahead of Plushenko in all competitions they both went, he had the highest quad success rate among all the elite skaters before the 98 Olympics. The 1998 WC maybe, because Yagudin got sick in Nagano, there's no way he could get fully recovered right after one month. That's not totally insane that the Russian Fed wanted to send someone else under that circumstance. But even so, still finally they decided to send Kulik and Yagudin, Plushenko went there only as a replacement for Kulik. And the Russian Federation wanted to send Plushenko to the Olympics? Can you give me a break?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by unicorn View Post
    Dear lala, it seems you know ME better than your idol. Let me just give you some statistics. Before the 1998 winter Olympics, Yagudin won the 1996-97 world bronze medal, won two 1997-98 GP events while Plushenko won 2 second places, placed 2nd after Kulik in RN, won the Euro championship, placed ahead of Plushenko in all competitions they both went, he had the highest quad success rate among all the elite skaters before the 98 Olympics. The 1998 WC maybe, because Yagudin got sick in Nagano, there's no way he could get fully recovered right after one month. That's not totally insane that the Russian Fed wanted to send someone else under that circumstance. But even so, still finally they decided to send Kulik and Yagudin, Plushenko went there only as a replacement for Kulik. And the Russian Federation wanted to send Plushenko to the Olympics? Can you give me a break?
    You believe me this is sure. I do not know why I arguing with you ..but you wanted it...

    Main results( Wikipedia):

    He is the 2006 Winter Olympics gold medalist, 2002 Winter Olympics silver medalist, and 2010 Winter Olympics silver medalist, three-time (2001, 2003, 2004) World champion, seven-time (2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2010, 2012) European champion, a four-time Grand Prix Final champion and a nine-time (1999–2002, 2004–2006, 2010, 2012) Russian national champion.

    Plushenko's technical achievements are numerous. He is one of the few male skaters to perform the Biellmann spin. He was the first skater in the world to perform a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-double loop jump (4–3–2) combination in competition, at the 1999 NHK Trophy (he has since landed his 4–3–2 combination 26 times so far). He is the first skater to have landed a quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop (4–3–3) combination in competition, at the at the GPF Final 2002 (he has since landed his 4–3–3 combination four times so far). Plushenko is also the first skater to land a triple toe loop-triple toe loop-triple loop-double loop (3–3–3–2) combination, which was at the 2005 "ARD Gala". At the European Championships, he landed a six jump combination (3–3–2–2–2–2) in his exhibition program. He has landed a four jump combination; 4 toe loop-3 toe loop-2 loop-2 loop, at the World Championships in 2001. Plushenko has landed a consistent quadruple toe loop in competition, and has also landed a quadruple salchow in Samara, Russia at the 2004 "Second stage of Cup of Russia". It is estimated that he has landed a total of about 100 quads in competition.

    At the age of 16, Plushenko was the youngest male skater to ever receive a perfect score of 6.0. He received a total of seventy five 6.0s before the new Code of Points judging system was introduced, most of them were presentation marks!
    Plushenko is the only male figure skater in the modern history of the sport to have won three Olympic medals in singles (Gillis Grafström won four in the early years of the sport, from 1920–1932)

    Well, he was the youngest male skater ever who got perfect score for his presentation, he was the youngest male world (bronse) and european( silver) medalist (15 y.o) ever., He was the youngest male junior world champion ever(14y.o.).
    Yag has never been Russian champion, Plushy beat him every time.

    European Championships 2000, Plush was 17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byMrwtOhPcc Plushy's marks and Yaudin's reaction
    Last edited by lala; 11-28-2012 at 05:46 PM.

  13. #93

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    While Mishin's remarks have a certain amount of irony, I think we're getting away from the discussion of several valid points. When COP was being pushed, some of the main points made by Speedy were that it was going to eliminate national bias in judging, reputation judging, block judging, and the second mark being used as a placeholder. Given the amount of discussion about Canflation that happens at every Skate Canada, Gachinski's medal at Moscow Worlds, and NHK. It seems clear that this hasn't happened and that there are some serious problems with the way the second mark is being used. I know at various times the suggestion has been made that there aren't enough judges on the panels to get a fair sampling of scores and that it is too hard for judges who have to look for so many details in the first mark to judge the PCS marks according to criterion. Is this the problem? I seem to remember that at one competition they tested having separate panels and were very embarrassed when the technical winner only got the fifth best PCS scores (something that makes perfect sense to me) and dropped the idea. So in hopes of avoiding more Olympic controversies what should be done to change the scoring system or change the judges? I've always favored the approach of actually hiring and paying judges, so that judges are less beholden to their national federations and can be fired if they turn out to not be judging according to the rules.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikjil View Post
    While Mishin's remarks have a certain amount of irony, I think we're getting away from the discussion of several valid points. When COP was being pushed, some of the main points made by Speedy were that it was going to eliminate national bias in judging, reputation judging, block judging, and the second mark being used as a placeholder. Given the amount of discussion about Canflation that happens at every Skate Canada, Gachinski's medal at Moscow Worlds, and NHK. It seems clear that this hasn't happened and that there are some serious problems with the way the second mark is being used. I know at various times the suggestion has been made that there aren't enough judges on the panels to get a fair sampling of scores and that it is too hard for judges who have to look for so many details in the first mark to judge the PCS marks according to criterion. Is this the problem? I seem to remember that at one competition they tested having separate panels and were very embarrassed when the technical winner only got the fifth best PCS scores (something that makes perfect sense to me) and dropped the idea. So in hopes of avoiding more Olympic controversies what should be done to change the scoring system or change the judges? I've always favored the approach of actually hiring and paying judges, so that judges are less beholden to their national federations and can be fired if they turn out to not be judging according to the rules.
    Your point is interesting. I don't think that the CoP is any better, or any worse, than the 6.0 system as far as national bias (or skating politics, or lobbying) are concerned. Just like it's been with various systems in economics, the problem is not the way the system is designed per se, the problem is the nature of people themselves. A sport that relies entirely on judging the way figure skating does relies on the premise that judges are always fair and cannot be swayed in their judging by considerations outside the performance they are presented with. Unfortunately, human nature is such that it is simply impossible, so there is always going to be some amount of unfairness

    The only thing we can do is find in which way corruption can be contained or at least limited. I am not sure if this can be done through having paid judges, although it could be worth a try, at least.

    Another thing that I was also thinking is that large gaps in GOE should not be allowed to pass without question - there are pretty specific criteria to take into account when giving them: an instance such as the Men's SP when one jump got a +3 and a -1 is thus proof that at least one person is not doing their job properly. Another solution to limitate inflation (or deflation) through GOE would be to eliminate systematically the highest and lowest GOE (or two highest and two lowest) as it's done in many sports which also integrate an element of human judging to the evalutation of the performance

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by rayhaneh View Post
    Your point is interesting. I don't think that the CoP is any better, or any worse, than the 6.0 system as far as national bias (or skating politics, or lobbying) are concerned. Just like it's been with various systems in economics, the problem is not the way the system is designed per se, the problem is the nature of people themselves. A sport that relies entirely on judging the way figure skating does relies on the premise that judges are always fair and cannot be swayed in their judging by considerations outside the performance they are presented with. Unfortunately, human nature is such that it is simply impossible, so there is always going to be some amount of unfairness

    The only thing we can do is find in which way corruption can be contained or at least limited. I am not sure if this can be done through having paid judges, although it could be worth a try, at least.

    Another thing that I was also thinking is that large gaps in GOE should not be allowed to pass without question - there are pretty specific criteria to take into account when giving them: an instance such as the Men's SP when one jump got a +3 and a -1 is thus proof that at least one person is not doing their job properly. Another solution to limitate inflation (or deflation) through GOE would be to eliminate systematically the highest and lowest GOE (or two highest and two lowest) as it's done in many sports which also integrate an element of human judging to the evalutation of the performance
    I agree that COP is not any better or worse but it was sold to us as that it was going to be better. The point was made in the beginning that by being anonymous and because you could not be sure if your score was going to be used, judges would be free from being beholden to their federations, would judge without reference to nationality, and would not be able to conspire to rig an event. This does not seem to have worked and the ISU have been very unwilling to discuss the various problems that have emerged in scoring or to admit that their much-vaunted and very expensive solution to all the problems of Salt Lake City hasn't worked as promised.

    Clearly, no judged sport is ever going to be absolutely fair, no matter what scoring system you use. I went to my first Nationals in 1998, and one of my memories is Audrey Weissiger walking up and down the stairs in the old Spectrum muttering "Figure skating is not a fair sport, figure skating is not a fair sport." Having said that, if you want to remain viable as a major sport you have to be able to convince both the dedicated and casual fan that your judging system is fair and transparent. While, there are always going to be some complaints by casual fans who don't understand the sports nuances, you have to be able to explain blatant instances of biased judging (like the legitimate questions raised about the medal results in men and dance in last year's Worlds) in some reasonable manner. I have to say that none of this is helped when there are certain unnamed skaters and coaches who always scream unfair judging whenever they don't get the results they think deserve. I also think that you have to have a willingness to be able to tweak your system when problems arise and I don't see any willingness on the part of the ISU to do this.

  16. #96

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    I love that skaters now earn their own spots with technical scores. I am not sure if it has been mentioned that tech specialists have also been known to play games with their scores. Sad to say there areno easy answers unless we program computers to judge.

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    As for Alexei Mishin, I think he's still promoting his philosophy(or strategy), a skate without jumping mistakes is a good skate no matter how the program components are. He might see that Mao's NHK result is another example of winning by PCS.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by gingercat View Post
    I love that skaters now earn their own spots with technical scores. I am not sure if it has been mentioned that tech specialists have also been known to play games with their scores. Sad to say there areno easy answers unless we program computers to judge.
    Or by cracking down on judges/callers/specialists who try to game the system to their chosen skater's or their federation's advantage. We don't know who gave which mark, but the ISU does. So the ISU can track patterns of judging or calling and should be able to see if there are consistent problems with particular individuals.

    But also, and unfortunately, if the rest of the panel has some ulterior agenda in giving their marks or calls, sometimes the evaluation that is way outside the norm is the most accurate evaluation. So the one honest judge or caller might get called on the carpet because they're not as corrupt as everyone else

    I think there are a lot of things that could be changed to make the current system better, in terms of accuracy, sampling, and so on, but any system is going to be flawed as long as there are flawed individuals using it who are not being held to account.

    And I know that the majority of judges and callers are honest, very hardworking people who try to do their very best and to be fair and to play by the rules. Sadly, it's the ones who don't do those things that make the whole system look bad.
    Who wants to watch rich people eat pizza? They must have loved that in Bangladesh. - Randy Newman on the 2014 Oscars broadcast

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    Mishin brought this issue up probably because he is Liza's coach

  20. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Has anyone yet defended Mao's FS marks at NHK? I didn't read through the entire thread on the NHK forum but from I saw, there only one very mildly defensive post of her. I usually listen to informed arguments both pro and con a skater's marks. But this to me was one of the more clear wuzgifted skates. Poor Mao looked totally embarrassed.

    However, it has no bearing on Plush's placement in 2010.
    I would like to attempt to defend Mao's PCS here. She got more or less the same score she got in China, I think it is reasonable. If we go component by component - her skating skills were the same. She did not fall, so she performed the same transitions and choreography. Her interpretation this time was even better since she was better in her timing - Mao was slightly behind the music in China, so she had to rush and left out some detailes there. In Japan, she was right on time and performed everything between the elements as planned.

    I still think Akiko should have won, but from PCS point of view I found Mao's performance to be on the same level as in China.

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