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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilJen View Post
    So, Mao was held up over Suzuki because of home advantage, except that . . . both women are Japanese????
    The theory usually goes that the judges will push whoever the Federation is pushing, which is why it's worrisome if a probable World or Olympic medalist doesn't win his/her/their Nationals (because that shows a lack of "support"), and why being [Country]#2 and especially [Country]#3 means getting less support or no support.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  2. #22
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    If I had to guess...Mao was being held up because she is 2-time WC and because Akiko is 27 and is viewed as approaching her expiration date.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  3. #23
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    Home ice advantange? What the hell does he mean by that. From what I know, Akiko is Japanese . It has nothing to do with home advantage.

    Technically, although Mao only landed three clean triples, Mirai only landed four perfectly clean ones. Both loops were deemed underrotated and two double toes were also. Mirai lost over 6.5 points on all the downgrades and the negative GOE marks that she received.
    Last edited by smarts1; 11-27-2012 at 01:16 AM.

  4. #24

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    But should Mao have beaten Mirai in the free?
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    No, some feel that Mao was held up over the skaters she beat in the LP. Suzuki won the LP, and has nothing to do with it. Mao obviously wasn't held up on the TES, so it seems obvious it was the tweaking of the PCS that held her up.
    Mao was held up on the TES, too. GOE was quite generous, she was lucky not to get some of her jumps(3F in SP, 3Lo-2Lo-2Lo in LP) downgraded.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChelleC View Post
    Mishin has no room to talk about any skaters component marks
    But obviously, he feels "entitled" to do so.

    Yes, it's not too clear whether Mishin genuinely prizes or even truly understands the importance of the artistic side of figure skating. He seems to stress the jumps more than the artistry. Neither should take a back seat.

    Generally though with Mishin's rep and his greatest pupil's rep (Plush), they never had to worry about the PCS, as many judges tend to give technically consistent jumpers generously high PCS. Gachinski benefited from that tendency in Moscow 2011. The next season, as soon as Gachinski began losing consistency on his jumps, his PCS started taking a nosedive as well. Actually, Gachinski was initially over-rated on PCS, because even though Gachinski has great potential to be a wonderful skater artistically and technically, he seems gawky and unpolished on the ice.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChelleC View Post
    Mishin has no room to talk about any skaters component marks
    He really should learn what the PCS criteria are. Landing a quad or 3/3 is not a stated criterion. Skating clean is not a stated criterion.

    Stop whining and get your skaters to use deeper edges for god's sake.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Gachinski benefited from that tendency in Moscow 2011. The next season, as soon as Gachinski began losing consistency on his jumps, his PCS started taking a nosedive as well.
    Skate well and get good marks, skate poorly and get low marks... I understand fully that it's not really what components marks measure, but I'm sorry, I really like that concept.

  9. #29
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    Gachinski didn't win bronze in Moscow with a meltdown! And he got the lowest pcs of any medalist and some people who didn't medal. His medal had nothing to do with pcs and was in spite of his pcs in Moscow worlds. Mao had huge pcs for her meltdown skate at NHk.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoGreen View Post
    Speak for yourself. Plushenko is the POSTER BOY of many things, as testified by standing ovations after standing ovations after his performances. I don't see any booing from the audience for his "outlandish" marks, instead, the audience always cheered his marks enthusiastically.

    And repeating stuff a thousand times won't make it more true. Keep preaching! You may get somewhere some time. Amen!
    Not always true. In Vancouver in 2010 there was a large portion of the audience who was quite happy that he didn't win and were a bit that he placed as high as he did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    He really should learn what the PCS criteria are. Landing a quad or 3/3 is not a stated criterion. Skating clean is not a stated criterion.

    Stop whining and get your skaters to use deeper edges for god's sake.
    This.
    "Beautiful things don't ask for attention." -The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cherub721 View Post
    Skate well and get good marks, skate poorly and get low marks... I understand fully that it's not really what components marks measure, but I'm sorry, I really like that concept.
    ^^ Ah yes, but for example when Jeremy Abbott misses his jumps (he is entirely capable of landing everything on a good day), his PCS marks are still generally quite high. Why? Because he is a brilliant all-around skater with good technique and superb artistry, and that is what true figure skating is all about.

    It seems to me that the judges do as they wish and they tend to give high PCS to highly regarded jumpers who still have work to do in refining their presentation skills. It actually took awhile before Jeremy was well-rewarded on PCS, even when he made mistakes on his jumps (so he is probably more of an exception re low technique scores and high PCS).
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-27-2012 at 04:33 AM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Ah yes, but for example when Jeremy Abbott misses his jumps (he is entirely capable of landing everything on a good day), his PCS marks are still generally quite high. Why? Because he is a brilliant all-around skater with good technique and superb artistry, and that is what true figure skating is all about.
    Abbott at least doesn't typically get held up a full place or two with PCS. When he bombs, he drops in the standings.

    Like I said, I understand the point of measuring all the PCS marks differently. I wouldn't have too much problem with it all if the judges consistently at least attempted to judge them correctly (I love seeing variations in the components). But they clearly use the PCS as placeholders which is why I laugh when people say "How can so and so have such a high TR score " cause we all know that's not what the judges are measuring. Also, some skaters really do show less interpretation, skating skills, and certainly performance/execution on the days they are falling all over the ice.

  13. #33
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    ^^ Sure Abbott would receive higher PCS if he was more consistent with his jumps, but still his PCS are quite high when he makes mistakes the last couple of seasons anyway (because he has had great, well-regarded programs, and because he moves so beautifully on the ice). You should review Abbott's recent marks at Skate America and TEB -- you'll see that his PCS are very high compared to those ahead of him. He drops when he doesn't skate well due to low TES marks, not low PCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by caseyedwards View Post
    Gachinski didn't win bronze in Moscow with a meltdown! And he got the lowest pcs of any medalist and some people who didn't medal. His medal had nothing to do with pcs and was in spite of his pcs in Moscow worlds. Mao had huge pcs for her meltdown skate at NHk.
    Well if it was "in spite of," the "in spite" had everything to do with where the event was taking place, IMHO!

    Come on, this was Gachinski's Worlds debut as a senior, and he was really rough around the edges, and he hasn't improved much at all since then in regard to flow over the ice, lines and stretch, even though he has a body that begs to be positioned in aesthetically pleasing ways ... yeah ok, but I'm not gonna rephrase that.

    Gachinski as a first timer at Worlds 2011, was clearly favored, whereas skaters like Ross Miner and Richard Dornbush (also first timers who had less work to do than Gachinski regarding improving presentation skills, were completely low-balled for skating clean as a whistle programs). I don't care about Gachinski's quads, Miner and Dornbush are more talented skaters than Gachinski re polished flow over the ice and overall skating skills (although Dornbush needs to relax his shoulders more).

    At Worlds 2011, did Brezina and Takahashi and Oda tank? Did Amodio land a quad? Why is Amodio so consistently scored high on PCS, with all the mugging and posing he does?
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-27-2012 at 04:38 AM.

  14. #34
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    How on earth Dornbush and Ross Miner clearly more talented, is it due to their nationality? not everyone agrees on the statement universally so don't declare as the ultimate truth. in the World 2011, Gachinski was able to perform well on that night and deserved his scores. As for other you mentioned, Well Brezina always tanks, Takahashi started his program with a single toe, fell on his 3s, had trouble with his axel and received and edge call on his Lz. oda had trouble counting 3t and Zayaked on his 2nd jump (that must be some kind of record). Gachinski managed to put together a very good SP and LP in that competition hence the medal.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    As if the audience actually knows the PCS criteria.
    Yeah, the audience who paid thousands of $$$ on tickets and travel to watch skating live knew nothing about PCS criteria and care nothing about figure skating, only FSU posters sitting in front of computers do,

    I wonder why ISU is ignoring our precious posters/experts here!!! Who cares if the stadium is filled or not? Who cares about empty seats? Who cares about what the audience love to watch? Let's keep a handful of our FSU posters here happy, cause they are the BACKBONES of Figure Skating!

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    As if the audience actually knows the PCS criteria.
    As if you are the expert of experts.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by made_in_canada View Post
    Not always true. In Vancouver in 2010 there was a large portion of the audience who was quite happy that he didn't win and were a bit that he placed as high as he did.
    As far as I know North American are biased against Plushenko. I know they don't like Russian at all, and what happened to Slutskaya and B/S in 2002.

  18. #38
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    You'll see what you want to see, I suppose.
    "Beautiful things don't ask for attention." -The Secret Life of Walter Mitty

  19. #39

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    North Americans!
    Plushenko's coach North Americans Watch out in Sochi...
    Prosperity makes friends, adversity tries them. – Publilius Syrus

  20. #40
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    Come on, I don't dislike Gachinski -- he's really cute, and I love those long limbs of his, he just doesn't seem to know how to use them in a completely effective and aesthetically pleasing way. Sure, he's improving somewhat, but he may need a different coach to fully explore his ahhhh ... artistic side. No double entendres intended.

    If I enjoy a skater, I don't care what their nationality is. And in fact, IMHO skaters should be rated according to overall abilities and talent level, not politics based on country of origin.


    ETA:
    I'm still in love with Ilia, Sasha Abt, Urmanov, Stephane, Takahashi, Verner, and I admire Jeff Buttle, adore Fernandez, and deeply respect Brian Joubert (but I have been turned off by Amodio's skating under Morosov). I think Kozuka is extremely talented and Hanyu is too precocious and over-scored on PCS, but he can land quads with such amazing ease, especially in his sps. A fairly scored Chan who is trying hard to improve artistically can be endearing. I'm not enamored of Oda, but I enjoy watching Denis Ten and I wish D10 had Oda's jump consistency.


    And obviously I said that Ross and Richard IMO are more talented in their flow over the ice and overall skating skills than Gachinski, which is not surprising since Gachinski's coach, Mishin, seemingly over-emphasizes jumps to the exclusion of other aspects of skating. So, okay, Gachinski has great jumping skills and can land different quads or used to be able to land quads more consistently, but now for some reason he's had problems with jumps lately.

    In addition, I did not say Ross and Richard were "clearly more talented." I did say that Gachinski was "clearly favored" at Worlds 2011, even as a first timer.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 11-27-2012 at 06:12 AM.

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