U.S. Ladies [#6]: "Swaggering with the S'Wagner" et al. into 2013

[Sylvia]

It's human nature to want to read the most negative (or positive) interpretation into what a skater says publicly depending on how one feels about a skater/their skating...

[Sasha'sSpins]

With so many senior ladies age-eligible for JW this season and the vast majority of them skating well, I think it was pretty likely the junior ladies winner was going to be left at home, unless it was Barbie Long and she won with a really big score, because she has the TES mins and did win a silver on the JGP. Polina is fab but USFS likely didn't want to have to send her out before JW to get the TES minimums, especially considering the decision was obviously tough enough without Polina in the mix considering neither Wang nor Miller are on the team. I'm sure they recognize Edmund's huge potential, but at this point, she still struggles with URs a bit and isn't quite out of the woods yet in regards to growing/puberty, so they probably just want to be careful and see if she can keep it up as she continues to grow up before hyping her. Plus, it's different from Gracie last season, who won juniors with a much higher score, was 16 to Polina's 14, nearly done growing compared to Polina's being in the middle of growing, and it being 2 years from Sochi, where she'd be 18 and a prime age for the team, compared to Sochi being 1 year from now when Polina will only be 15 which would be very young to make the team. If she continues to kick butt I'm sure she'll receive a lot of buzz in the next quad heading into 2018.

Kind of like the Kiira Korpi 'pretty' factor that seems to boost her scores now and again. Not always-I've seen some amazing skates from Korpi but other times I can't help wondering...

[Nomad]

No, let them fly under the radar and develop out of the spotlight...I hope Gold isn't being set up for failure with all this media and fan hype. What will happen if she doesn't skate well at worlds??

What always happens when the Annointed One tanks at Worlds. Some will be running for the tar and feathers, others will rally to her defense, and a small group of former Gracie fans will dpo an about-face and start posting on and on about how we should have sent Hicks or Gao instead.

[demetriosj]

It's human nature to want to read the most negative (or positive) interpretation into what a skater says publicly depending on how one feels about a skater/their skating...

Please tell me how you could interpret that remark positively? Maybe I'm missing it.

[Sylvia]

You conveniently left out Gracie Gold's positive words to Wagner and Zawadzki at the beginning of the Ladies' post-FS press conference - her full statement was:

"I just want to congratulate these other 2 ladies because they are amazing, and they are... they pushed me, because after that short program I didn't want to compete but I knew that I had a lot of competitors that were very strong - it was a deep field this year - so I knew I had to push through, and they skated great short programs and really good long programs and they deserve to be here with me."

I thought Gracie sounded confident, but I can see others interpreting her closing words as "arrogance." To succeed at the highest levels of sport, confidence-bordering-on-arrogance is a necessary ingredient for some athletes to have. With the media-fueled hype surrounding Gold post-Nationals, she will need self-confidence in order to make it through the rest of the season. And with more media training, her public PC-speak will likely improve.

[danceronice]

You conveniently left out Gracie Gold's positive words to Wagner and Zawadzki at the beginning of the Ladies' post-FS press conference - her full statement was:

"I just want to congratulate these other 2 ladies because they are amazing, and they are... they pushed me, because after that short program I didn't want to compete but I knew that I had a lot of competitors that were very strong - it was a deep field this year - so I knew I had to push through, and they skated great short programs and really good long programs and they deserve to be here with me."

I thought Gracie sounded confident, but I can see others interpreting her closing words as "arrogance." To succeed at the highest levels of sport, confidence-bordering-on-arrogance is a necessary ingredient for some athletes to have. With the media-fueled hype surrounding Gold post-Nationals, she will need self-confidence in order to make it through the rest of the season. And with more media training, her public PC-speak will likely improve.

It would be confidence coming from a GOLD medalist. Coming from the second-place finisher talking about someone who finished ahead of her, it crosses 'bordering on' into at best ill-advised overconfidence. She sounds condescending. She should have stopped after "amazing." I had no opinion on her after seeing her skate other than the same 'meh' as I got from all the other ladies, but the comment makes me think she has an ego problem out of keeping with her results.

[leafygreens]

Her last name isn't Gold. I mean, it isn't that often that an elite athlete comes along with a name that is the same as the color of a medal. It is a headline writer's dream. Edmunds really doesn't lend itself to great puns.

Heh, good point.

Hicks' jumps are at least as good, if not better than Gracie's. And their artistry level is about equal.

When Hicks first hit the scene there was a lot of hype about her as well, comparing her to Sasha, etc. Then she had the injury, dropped off the radar, and I think Gracie took her place in the hypemachine. At first it appeared Courtney's skating was going in the Sasha direction, but it doesn't appear it is going that way anymore. It looks like she is more of an athlete than a ballerina, and her flexibility isn't that great.

NBC spent the ENTIRE group 3 warmup talking about, oops I mean hyping Gold like she's the best thing since sliced bread. That raises expectations to unbelievable levels. Especially since her track record internationally (so far) isn't anything earth-shattering...if anything, Wagner is the more decorated skater even taking ONLY this season into account...

Summary of the above: Gold is receiving hype she has not earned yet.

Exactly, this seemed very suspicious to me.

[RD]

What always happens when the Annointed One tanks at Worlds. Some will be running for the tar and feathers, others will rally to her defense, and a small group of former Gracie fans will dpo an about-face and start posting on and on about how we should have sent Hicks or Gao instead.

yeah, basically. Or Nagasu!

[aftershocks]

Another thought: It was cute hearing one of Gracie's coaches saying to her triumphantly after her fp: "You're Gracie Gold, you're Gracie Gold!"

Cute? I find that a little odd and creepy!!

Yes, you're absolutely right. I was attempting to find a descriptive word that would not be too unkind. But "odd and creepy" actually does say it best. Thanks!


BTW, leafygreens, I don't see how anyone could have ever compared Courtney Hicks to Sasha Cohen. In what regard exactly?

[RD]

I thought Gracie sounded confident, but I can see others interpreting her closing words as "arrogance." To succeed at the highest levels of sport, confidence-bordering-on-arrogance is a necessary ingredient for some athletes to have. With the media-fueled hype surrounding Gold post-Nationals, she will need self-confidence in order to make it through the rest of the season. And with more media training, her public PC-speak will likely improve.

Yes, I agree - and I can appreciate that we finally have some female skaters who are not afraid to show their competitive side. Wagner, for one. She's no "ice princess" that's for sure

I haven't heard enough of Gold to tell for sure but she seems somewhere in the middle.

It's not a bad thing to want to win, guys. I'm sick and tired of the "ice princess" stereotype that a lot of people seem to expect even these days.

[aftershocks]

^^ True, Sylvia and RD.

However, RD, you seem to be mixing the "ice princess" stereotype with peoples' varying opinions about what they perceive sounds like a bit of "arrogance" from the last part of what Gracie said. It's all fairly subjective. More than likely all three ladies were given advice re being complimentary and PC in their responses during the press conference, especially since there was known to be a lot of drama and upsetting reactions from audience, competitors, and tweeting fans regarding the final results. It was kind of a throwaway line from Gracie, but definitely taken by itself sounds a bit uppity (as if "They didn't skate as well as I did in the fp, but I admire them and they deserve to be up here with me.") True they didn't skate as well technically, so all the more reason to avoid implying as such. But overall, no biggie. I hope Gracie goes out there and continues to skate with confidence and belief in herself. It was exciting to see her in action.

It's definitely not a "bad thing" to want to win. That's the confident, fighting spirit quality that so many fans seem to admire about Ashley (perhaps some don't ). OTOH, a seeming lack of desire and confidence is what some fans complained about in their past perception of Mirai, particularly last season. So, it's all good to have talented and confident skaters like Ashley and Gracie heading to Worlds. I do think that Ashley has generally been more diplomatic and sportsmanlike in the way she has carried herself after her recent success, probably because she's older and so she's had more experience re the ups and downs of competing (and also more media training).

I doubt Gracie's intention was to be arrogant. She was trying to be complimentary and taken as a whole, she was. Self-confidence is important, but I think true self-confidence really has less to do with comparing oneself to rivals, or suggesting where one's rivals "deserve" to be. Real confidence is quiet, strong and steady and doesn't need to draw attention to itself. Beneficial confidence is a feeling within that as an athlete you are able to bring out in the competitive arena without worrying about what anyone else has done or might do. Gracie was able to get into that confidence zone during her fp skate, and kudos to her. She was spectacular athletically, and the rest of her skating is improving nicely, but of course, still needs a lot of work. IMO, there's no need for Gracie to rush, or be over-promoted, or project over-confidence. She's in a good place at the right time, and she just needs to keep her head on straight and be steady as she goes forward. Certainly, it's going to continue being a difficult balancing act with the media and the federation desiring to promote Gracie (as they should in an effective but not over-hyped way). The balancing act is made harder by fans being all over the place with our perceptions, and with the rivalries heating up and beginning to become more intense.

In any case, I think Ashley Wagner has been redefining the "ice princess" stereotype. And that Gracie needs to find her way amidst all the brouhaha to carve out who she is without falling into the ready made "ice princess" trap that the media and indeed the federation and some fans have already set for her, largely because of her looks, her name, her talent, and the yearning for the old days of "U.S. ice princess" domination. BTW, IMO, Michelle Kwan dominated but she did not fit the "ice princess" stereotype either. Perhaps that’s partly why the media were always looking for others to beat MK, and never seemed to understand how to write about her, nor did they seem to realize how and why Kwan's journey in skating transcended the sport.

[mgobluegirl]

Exactly! She was being hyped, (whether by USFS or the Gold PR machine, or both, I'm not sure), before she even competed at the Junior level at Nationals last year!

To be fair, I think that was excited fans more than anything having to do with USFS or any "PR machine". People, including myself, were excited about the season she was having and the wonderful skills she displayed at competitions throughout the year leading up to nationals.

[demetriosj]

It's not a bad thing to want to win, guys..

Of course not, but one doesn't have to be rude in the process....

[mkats]

Yes, you're absolutely right. I was attempting to find a descriptive word that would not be too unkind. But "odd and creepy" actually does say it best. Thanks!


BTW, leafygreens, I don't see how anyone could have ever compared Courtney Hicks to Sasha Cohen. In what regard exactly?

I think Hicks got a lot of Sasha-Cohen-Attention for a) having the same coach, b) wearing one of Sasha's old dresses (the purple-yellow Rachmaninoff).

[Marco]

Her last name isn't Gold. I mean, it isn't that often that an elite athlete comes along with a name that is the same as the color of a medal. It is a headline writer's dream. Edmunds really doesn't lend itself to great puns.

Evgeni Pewter - that's my best shot

[Marco]

Kind of like the Kiira Korpi 'pretty' factor that seems to boost her scores now and again. Not always-I've seen some amazing skates from Korpi but other times I can't help wondering...

Sometimes the opposite also rings true. When you see someone like Korpi or Czisny score well, it's easy to jump to conclusions that they do so because of their faces instead of dig deeper into analysing their edge qualities and what not.

[Marco]

With so many senior ladies age-eligible for JW this season and the vast majority of them skating well, I think it was pretty likely the junior ladies winner was going to be left at home, unless it was Barbie Long and she won with a really big score, because she has the TES mins and did win a silver on the JGP. Polina is fab but USFS likely didn't want to have to send her out before JW to get the TES minimums, especially considering the decision was obviously tough enough without Polina in the mix considering neither Wang nor Miller are on the team. I'm sure they recognize Edmund's huge potential, but at this point, she still struggles with URs a bit and isn't quite out of the woods yet in regards to growing/puberty, so they probably just want to be careful and see if she can keep it up as she continues to grow up before hyping her. Plus, it's different from Gracie last season, who won juniors with a much higher score, was 16 to Polina's 14, nearly done growing compared to Polina's being in the middle of growing, and it being 2 years from Sochi, where she'd be 18 and a prime age for the team, compared to Sochi being 1 year from now when Polina will only be 15 which would be very young to make the team. If she continues to kick butt I'm sure she'll receive a lot of buzz in the next quad heading into 2018.

My guess is that

1) Edmunds has yet to have the min TES score.
2) Edmunds has not skated internationally at all and has no reps.
3) The Jr ladies competition was a rather poorly skated event overall with the number of UR calls and falls.
4) The age eligible ladies who competed at seniors all have the min TES score, all skated very well throughout the season, and all have easily ratifiable 3/3s.
5) Since these ladies did well throughout the season and at nationals as well, it's difficult not to "reward" them with another post-Nationals assignment but there are only so many Worlds and 4CC spots.
6) US ladies is not at one of those stages of the cycle where a major player has left and they need to promote someone new (like Zhang / Nagasu in 2007 after Kwan / Cohen left, or the case of Zawadzki / Gold in 2010-2012 when the likes of Zhang, Nagasu and Wagner already went a few times and were instead for 4CCs / Worlds)

[leafygreens]

I think Hicks got a lot of Sasha-Cohen-Attention for a) having the same coach, b) wearing one of Sasha's old dresses (the purple-yellow Rachmaninoff).

Their skating wasn't even similar at that time, because Courtney was never that flexible.

[johndockley92]

Replies to everything in this thread:

While I feel that Gracie is probably a year away from being ready for Worlds, she did earn her spot. True, her scores in the SP and her PCS in the FS were a bit too high, but she showed poise in the freeskate and was seemingly the only one willing to do that. Ashley WAS imo overscored, but not in the PCS; several of her jumps deserved negatives that did not receive them. Being in the arena it was clear that her jumps were two-footed. Way too much hate for Gracie on this thread, I don't feel that her remarks were out of line at all; I think you all are just taking them the wrong way. Learn to know a person before you just start spreading hate about them.

Mirai was scored properly. Her jumps were clearly cheated and her scores reflected that. In my opinion, it was Caroline who was grossly underscored, especially in the SP. Her Flip was clearly clean to me, I could see the marking on the ice and could tell it was clean. Her 3L-3L combo also appeared clean with a slight chance of an UR on the second jump, but a downgrade? Not a chance.

To suggest that Polina and Courtney don't get the hype of Gracie because of look or fluidity of name is preposterous. Polina is a lovely skater who didn't have the JW Min. score and thus couldn't go no matter what. USFS wasn't going to spend money to send someone to a separate competition before JW when there are other viable options that are as good or better. Perhaps when both skaters fix the UR problems on their triple-triple combos they will be met with the same hype as Gracie. Although Courtney is also fast just like Gracie, I find her skating out of control sometimes and not deserving of the same level of components that Gold receives. As for Polina, she is clearly still a junior level skater and I'm sure she'll improve with time.

Gracie has this level of hype because no other US lady can land a triple triple combination with the ease that she does. She clearly has the best jumping ability of all the US ladies and can rival that of the best in the world. It's also not her fault that she has as much hype as she does, so don't hate her for it.

[Philly2034]

My guess is that

1) Edmunds has yet to have the min TES score.
2) Edmunds has not skated internationally at all and has no reps.
3) The Jr ladies competition was a rather poorly skated event overall with the number of UR calls and falls.
4) The age eligible ladies who competed at seniors all have the min TES score, all skated very well throughout the season, and all have easily ratifiable 3/3s.
5) Since these ladies did well throughout the season and at nationals as well, it's difficult not to "reward" them with another post-Nationals assignment but there are only so many Worlds and 4CC spots.
6) US ladies is not at one of those stages of the cycle where a major player has left and they need to promote someone new (like Zhang / Nagasu in 2007 after Kwan / Cohen left, or the case of Zawadzki / Gold in 2010-2012 when the likes of Zhang, Nagasu and Wagner already went a few times and were instead for 4CCs / Worlds)

Yeah, the whole thing with skaters that "burst onto the scene" seems to move in cycles.

In 1996, it was Michelle, Tara, Nicole, and Angela Nikodinov.

In 2000, it was Sarah, Sasha, Jenny, and Naomi.

In 2004, it was Kimmie, Kathy, and Danielle (The Three Chicklets).

In 2008, it was Rachel, Caroline, Mirai, and Ashley.

In 2012, it was Gracie, Angela Wang, and Nina Jiang.


Not only does the hype move in cycles, but also the skaters birthdays seem to move in cycles.

For example, all of the 1996 skaters were born from 1979-1982.

All of the 2000 skaters were born from 1983-1986.

All of the 2004 skaters were born from 1987-1990.

All of the 2008 skaters were born from 1991-1994.

All of the 2012 skaters were born from 1995-1998.


My guess is that we'll see the next round in 2016 featuring Starr Andrews, Karen Chen, and some others.