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  1. #761
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    Just posting this here too since it's relevant.

    My ladies review: http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/

    I can't wait to go back through the thread and read...I'm still scratching my head and shrugging my shoulders over this one...

  2. #762
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    ^^ Thanks kwanatic. I enjoyed reading your round-up review. Great job of breaking it all down!

    Under the circumstances of what happened, and based on your summary, I wondered who you think should have won the ladies' event? We all know who USFS expected would deliver, and the two they preferred to send: obviously Wagner and Gold, (and in lieu of Gold, they clearly wanted to send Zawadski rather than Nagasu or Gao).

  3. #763
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    Sadly, the general public,( who have no idea that the short program should be a factor in the final results at Nationals), will jump on the "Gracie wuz robbed bandwagon" that the Gold PR machine is pushing. This will serve to give her further notoriety and name recognition going into the Olympic Year. The best team Gold could have hoped for....thanks to the gift given to her by the judges...........
    Last edited by demetriosj; 01-29-2013 at 02:37 PM.

  4. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ Thanks kwanatic. I enjoyed reading your round-up review. Great job of breaking it all down!

    Under the circumstances of what happened, and based on your summary, I wondered who you think should have won the ladies' event? We all know who USFS expected would deliver, and the two they preferred to send: obviously Wagner and Gold, (and in lieu of Gold, they clearly wanted to send Zawadski rather than Nagasu or Gao).
    Thanks aftershocks.

    You know, I asked myself that same question and I still don't have an answer. That's one of the reasons I'm so conflicted about the results. I don't really think Ashley deserved it based on the FS, but then again I wouldn't necessarily say Gracie was the clear winner either based on the on weak areas of her skating and poor SP. So who does that leave? Agnes? Courtney? Christina? I have no idea. I think Ashley was rewarded for her solid 12 months of skating and, given what's on the line, I agree with that. But that FS score was huge...but then again so was Gracie's...UGH!

    I may go back and play judge -- re-watch the ladies' programs and score them to see where I'd place everyone. I did that for the novice level competition (I was bored at work) and it was fun. Plus the majority of my scores were in line with what the judges gave.

    The funny thing about the novice level versus the senior level is the point spread in PCS among the judges. At the novice level, all of the judges' scores were within a point of each other. If you look at the protocols from the senior ladies event, you have judges handing out a much wider range of scores with huge gaps between some. Gracie's FS PCS ranged from 6.00-7.25 from one judge, while another judge gave her 8.00-9.00. That's a huge gap! Courtney's ranged from 5.75 to 8.75...again, another big gap. Are the judges even watching the same performances? It's just an illustration of how subjective and sometimes bias the scoring can be at these competitions.

    This judging system is so redonkulous I don't even know how to handle it anymore...
    Last edited by kwanatic; 01-29-2013 at 03:14 PM.

  5. #765

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    Quote Originally Posted by demetriosj View Post
    Sadly, the general public,( who have no idea that the short program should be a factor in the final results at Nationals), will jump on the "Gracie wuz robbed bandwagon" that the Gold PR machine is pushing. This will serve to give her further notoriety and name recognition going into the Olympic Year. The best team Gold could have hoped for....thanks to the gift given to her by the judges...........
    Can the Gold PR machine see that there are areas where their skater needs improvement? If no, then the same thing might happen at 4CC and Worlds.
    Last edited by algonquin; 01-29-2013 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #766
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    ^^ I agree with some of your assessments, Marco. Still, how could you call it "a rotten Nationals," with all of the great skates, and the high drama of the men's and ladies events? And for me, the pairs event was enjoyable to watch with some thrills and spills in the final as well. And, Meryl & Charlie are drama and excitement personified. And they always set a high standard that other ice dance competitors seem inspired by.

    Even if all of the results didn't turn out as you had hoped for, characterizing the entire championships as "rotten" is a rather "rotten" thing to do. But I still respect some of your other opinions, Marco.
    I don't follow American pairs and dance, and while I love Davis & White, there is just no excitement when they are a whole skyscraper better than everyone else. [and if they don't win, something must be seriously wrong and I don't want to watch it]

    For the ladies, I (only) enjoy Gao and Cesario, but find the ladies judging all over the place, and am a little upset that Nagasu's rebound did not happen and that Wagner didn't redeem herself after GPF (and instead skated worse). Everything else was kind of dull. Wang expected threw the short program away and Gold and Zhang expectedly skated a strong but bland free skate. And I disagree with promoting Zawadzki and Hicks. Zawadzki doesn't have the jumps often and isn't sufficiently Cohen to afford those mistakes. Hicks (and her free foot) is simply hideous to watch even with the great spins, the speed and throw away style.

    I am looking forward to watching Baga but haven't come across a video of her skate yet.

    The judging for the men are also all over the place but that's for another thread.

  7. #767
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    Hopefully Ashley can use this time to fully heal and stay injury-free so that she can train properly, like she had planned to for Nationals, (before her injury at GPF and food poisoning right before Nationals.)

    Fingers crossed we can see a strong, confident, healthy Ashley at Worlds so that she can whoop some butt!

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    I hate that Wagner hasn't tried the 3/3 all season - it makes her landing it at Worlds that much harder.

  9. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Zawadzki doesn't have the jumps often and isn't sufficiently Cohen to afford those mistakes.
    I know what you mean, great turn of phrase, Marco.

    "Are you Cohen enough?"
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  10. #770
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I hate that Wagner hasn't tried the 3/3 all season - it makes her landing it at Worlds that much harder.
    The food poisoning prior to Nationals probably upended those plans. I assume she was going to try at least one of a 3-3 or 2x-3t at Nationals. Now, she's rightly staying away from 4CC's, but she'll have to really focus to add them by Worlds (where she will need them). But if anyone can do it, it's Ashley who can.

    Let's hope she emulates the Kween at Worlds in more ways than one! Let's also hope she shakes all the nagging problems by March.

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    I'm fully prepared for Gao to beat Gold and Zawadzki at 4CC and make her chalkage of being OTP at Nationals just that much more apparent

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Just posting this here too since it's relevant.

    My ladies review: http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/

    I can't wait to go back through the thread and read...I'm still scratching my head and shrugging my shoulders over this one...
    I wish the USFSA would simply pick the team they want to send to Worlds instead of (apparently) encouraging the judges to manipulate the scores. They still could have sent Ashley, even if she didn't place first (or even second). There was no need to inflate her scores as much as they did. And Gracie was also gifted in her PCS score. Why? Because Canada gifted Kaetlyn Osmond with a 130? That's about how much sense the scoring results make!

  13. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    The food poisoning prior to Nationals probably upended those plans. I assume she was going to try at least one of a 3-3 or 2x-3t at Nationals. Now, she's rightly staying away from 4CC's, but she'll have to really focus to add them by Worlds (where she will need them). But if anyone can do it, it's Ashley who can.
    I am thinking the 3loop 2axel sequence isn't such a good idea anymore for psychological reasons. I would rather she go for a 3loop2toe instead, or swap the loop sequence with the lutz so she gets distracted.

    Next season, she should toy around with a 2axel half loop 3sal or 3loop half loop 3sal, I think the success rate might be higher than any 3/3. I am surprised the 3flip3toe didn't come already given how big and consistent her flips have become.

  14. #774

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinky166 View Post
    I'm fully prepared for Gao to beat Gold and Zawadzki at 4CC and make her chalkage of being OTP at Nationals just that much more apparent
    You keep using the word, but what the heck does "chalkage" mean??

  15. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I am thinking the 3loop 2axel sequence isn't such a good idea anymore for psychological reasons. I would rather she go for a 3loop2toe instead, or swap the loop sequence with the lutz so she gets distracted.

    Next season, she should toy around with a 2axel half loop 3sal or 3loop half loop 3sal, I think the success rate might be higher than any 3/3. I am surprised the 3flip3toe didn't come already given how big and consistent her flips have become.
    No matter what she says, if Ashley wants a shot at the top 5 at worlds she is going to have to add a 3-3 of some kind. Everyone has one or something: Mao (word is she's going for the 3A), Yu-Na (3Lz-3T), Carolina (3T-3T), Akiko (3T-3T), Liza (3Lz-3T), Adelina (3T-3T), Kaetlyn (3T-3T or possibly 3F-3T), Kanako (3T-3T), Kiira (is she still going? 3T-3T), Gracie (3Lz-3T)...

    Ashley has to add that 3F-3T to the SP and needs the 2A-3T for the FS if she wants to stay close...
    Last edited by kwanatic; 01-29-2013 at 06:33 PM.

  16. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I am thinking the 3loop 2axel sequence isn't such a good idea anymore for psychological reasons. I would rather she go for a 3loop2toe instead, or swap the loop sequence with the lutz so she gets distracted.

    Next season, she should toy around with a 2axel half loop 3sal or 3loop half loop 3sal, I think the success rate might be higher than any 3/3. I am surprised the 3flip3toe didn't come already given how big and consistent her flips have become.
    There was a recent IN article that stated that just after the GPF, Ashley and her coaches went back and locked down the 3l-2x seq. to avoid it becoming an psychological issue. Now, she fell on the 3l preceding the 2x at Nationals, but I'm wondering if that was lack of training causing her to lose focus rather than any psychological barrier. My concern for Ashley is that she really needs to maximize points against the likes of Yu Na and Mao nearly at 2010 form, a resilient Carolina, and the Russian babies (Adelina and Liza) starting to nail their routines, and the 3l-2x seq. maximized points better than a 3l-2t.

    IIRC correctly, Ashley finally got the 3f-3t in the SP at WTT last season. I see a similarity in Ashley's approach to the big moves (3-3s) to what Kwan used to do. Let's hope it works out for her

  17. #777
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    Double post

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    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    There was a recent IN article that stated that just after the GPF, Ashley and her coaches went back and locked down the 3l-2x seq. to avoid it becoming an psychological issue. Now, she fell on the 3l preceding the 2x at Nationals, but I'm wondering if that was lack of training causing her to lose focus rather than any psychological barrier. My concern for Ashley is that she really needs to maximize points against the likes of Yu Na and Mao nearly at 2010 form, a resilient Carolina, and the Russian babies (Adelina and Liza) starting to nail their routines, and the 3l-2x seq. maximized points better than a 3l-2t.

    IIRC correctly, Ashley finally got the 3f-3t in the SP at WTT last season. I see a similarity in Ashley's approach to the big moves (3-3s) to what Kwan used to do. Let's hope it works out for her
    She also missed the 2axel after the 3loop in the run through practice at Nationals (which she also fell twice). (OMG she is channeling Cohen )

    Maximising points is good, but there are 2 parts to this: smart calculation, and good execution. If she is simply not capable of going smart because, let's face it, she is no Yuna or Gold when it comes to jumping, then she should strategise. The 2axel3toe is Tuk's and Gold's auxiliary trick and they could do it in their sleep, but it is Wagner's only big trick and yet she hasn't even attempted it once yet? All her closest competitors have landed a combo at least as big as 2axel3toe.

    I remember Wagner finally nailing the 3flip3toe and 2axel3toe at WTT, but that's the third competition she attempted them in (4CCs, Worlds, WTT) whereas this season Worlds will be the first and only chance she will attempt them. The odds are not good and she needs to really up the ante (ok we are back on the Kwan comparison ).

  19. #779
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    Re-posting and replying to Marco's questions about Courtney Hicks here rather than in the Nagasu thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    re: Hicks

    And she is still somewhat coached by Nicks. If he can't fix her feet, I don't think anyone else can.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Hicks has switched to Jere Michael and Alex Chang - they coach the very elegant junior Amanda Gelb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Thanks re: Hicks. I swear I read that she still takes from Nicks once a week.
    The April 2012 article about Hicks' coaching change from Mr. Nicks to Ken Congemi mentioned that she was still planning to take one lesson a week from Nicks. She switched back to her old coach, Scott Wendland, who coached her at her 2 JGPs this past fall and Sectionals in November, before switching to Jere Michael and Alex Chang sometime before Nationals.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  20. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    She also missed the 2axel after the 3loop in the run through practice at Nationals (which she also fell twice). (OMG she is channeling Cohen )

    Maximising points is good, but there are 2 parts to this: smart calculation, and good execution. If she is simply not capable of going smart because, let's face it, she is no Yuna or Gold when it comes to jumping, then she should strategise. The 2axel3toe is Tuk's and Gold's auxiliary trick and they could do it in their sleep, but it is Wagner's only big trick and yet she hasn't even attempted it once yet? All her closest competitors have landed a combo at least as big as 2axel3toe.

    I remember Wagner finally nailing the 3flip3toe and 2axel3toe at WTT, but that's the third competition she attempted them in (4CCs, Worlds, WTT) whereas this season Worlds will be the first and only chance she will attempt them. The odds are not good and she needs to really up the ante (ok we are back on the Kwan comparison ).
    But you could say that missing the 3l - 2x seq. in the runthrough was attributed to Ashley being out of sorts from the previous week's food poisoning. She was hitting the 3l-2x seq. at SA and TEB, and remember, back in 2010 when she was still with Priscilla Hill and her technique was a less solid, she was able to do that jump seq. So, hopefully it's just a matter of her being out of sorts.

    I agree that Ashley is not as talented a jumper as some, but she's gritty and determined. I hope she can do it.

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