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  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philly2034 View Post
    There are a lot of eerie similarities between Kimmie Meissner, Alissa Czisny, and Ashley Wagner.
    In 2006-2007, Kimmie won a major senior international (4CC) and nationals, and placed 4th at worlds (with a score of 180.23).
    In 2007-2008, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2008, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2008 worlds, she performed poorly.
    By the 2008-2009 season, her career was basically over.

    In 2010-2011, Alissa won a major senior international (GPF) and nationals, and placed 5th at worlds (with a score of 182.25).
    In 2011-2012, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2012, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2012 worlds, she performed poorly.
    By the 2012-2013 season, her career was basically over.

    In 2011-2012, Ashley won a major senior international (4CC) and nationals, and placed 4th at worlds (with a score of 176.77.).
    In 2012-2013, she did decently on the GP Circuit, but then went to the GP Final and didn't do well.
    In the 2013, nationals, she didn't perform her best, but still was good enough to go to worlds.
    At 2013 worlds, she performed______.
    I really don't see that many similarities. Yes, Kimmie went to Worlds in 2008 because skaters who finished ahead of her were too young, but she finished in seventh at nationals (compared to Ashley's first place finish). She went to the GPF, but finished a distant sixth (compared to Ashley's second place finish).

    The Alissa comparison is a bit closer, but Alissa had more struggles last season than Ashley did this season. And Ashley's never had the kind of meltdown we've seen multiple times from Alissa.

    Even if they were similar, it's still too hard to predict. I'm actually not upset that Ashley had some struggles at the GPF and Nationals. It had to happen sometime, and it's better to work through it now than at Worlds. She didn't completely fall apart either, which bodes well for her. I think she's more of a fighter than skaters like Kimmie and Alissa (both of whom I like for different reasons).

  2. #742
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    This is what I don't get. People are mad that Ashley won with 2 falls in the LP instead of Gracie winning with a fall and a pop in the SP.
    Yes, and even though they are cumulatively similar and balance each other out points-wise, Wagner still landed more than twice as many jump passes in the FS than were falls, while Gold flubbed twice as many jump passes in the SP as she landed. The FS is a long haul, and falls take a lot out of the skater, yet she perservered.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    Yet, the men's winner performed perfectly, and people are complaining that Jeremy should have won because no way will Max get the 3rd spot back.

    A lot of contradiction going on.
    Mais non, Ladies is Ladies, and Men, who?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayra View Post
    Minus the cheeks bit, nothing has changed.
    I'm so glad I watched on YouTube with the Japanese commentary and will get to re-watch the IN archives when I'm back in Seattle next.

    Although I'm sad I missed scheduling the Men's broadcast, because I like to see them once on mute on a bigger screen.
    "'Is this new BMW-designed sled the ultimate sledding machine for Langdon and Holcomb?' Leigh Diffey asked before the pair cruised to victory. I don’t know, but I know that sled is the ultimate Olympic Games product placement.." -- Jen Chaney

  3. #743
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockTheTassel View Post
    I really don't see that many similarities. Yes, Kimmie went to Worlds in 2008 because skaters who finished ahead of her were too young, but she finished in seventh at nationals (compared to Ashley's first place finish). She went to the GPF, but finished a distant sixth (compared to Ashley's second place finish).

    The Alissa comparison is a bit closer, but Alissa had more struggles last season than Ashley did this season. And Ashley's never had the kind of meltdown we've seen multiple times from Alissa.

    Even if they were similar, it's still too hard to predict. I'm actually not upset that Ashley had some struggles at the GPF and Nationals. It had to happen sometime, and it's better to work through it now than at Worlds. She didn't completely fall apart either, which bodes well for her. I think she's more of a fighter than skaters like Kimmie and Alissa (both of whom I like for different reasons).
    Another eerie similarity.

    Kimmie did not go to Four Continents before 2008 worlds.

    Alissa did not go to Four Continents before 2012 worlds.

    Ashley isn't going to this year's four continents before worlds.

  4. #744

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    You know what else is eerie? Both Kimmie and Ashley have an "ee" sound at the end of their names AND both have 2 syllable last names

  5. #745

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    And all three ladies are skaters!

  6. #746
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    And all three ladies are skaters!
    And ladies!
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  7. #747
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    Eeriest comparison of all: Ashley, Alissa and Kimmie are all human beings.

    Kimmie was in another universe. If I had to pick a current skater to be Kimmie, I'd pick Caroline. As for Alissa, she's beautiful and talented but quite fragile. Ashley's really not a fragile type.

  8. #748
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    Quote Originally Posted by triple_toe View Post
    You know what else is eerie? Both Kimmie and Ashley have an "ee" sound at the end of their names AND both have 2 syllable last names
    So does Alissa if you consider her last name...

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    Apologies if this has already been posted elsewhere. Here is an article on Hannah Miller

  10. #750
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    Most importantly Ashley no longer has to grow (ala Kimmie) and she's a fierce competitor as mentioned. Alissa lacks spine in competition but I will forever respect everything about her and adore her skating.

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    ^^ I'm not sure what you mean by "lacks spine in competition." IMO, no one who makes it to the top levels of this sport "lacks spine," either in competition or off the ice.

    Perhaps you are fooled by Alyssa's sweet smile and angelic grace, but she's one tough cookie. Otherwise, there's no way she could have made it through last season suffering from the frustrations of a physical ailment that she wasn't even aware of until the disastrous end of her season. And, without steely determination and courage, there's no way she could have come back from that injury, the surgery, and the intensive training that was required to skate again the way she was skating earlier this month before she suffered the hip dislocation in competition.

    To the contrary of what some non-fans of the sport think, figure skating is NOT for sissies nor for people who "lack spine in competition."

    It's quite normal to experience nervousness in competition. And often the measure of success in figure skating depends upon an athlete's ability to make their nerves work for them in a good way.

  12. #752
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    I agree that Alissa has more intestinal fortitude than most suggest. I also agree that she's a strong person in many ways. However, she isn't always capable of dealing with her nerves in a way that benefits her competitively. As a competitive figure skater, that matters.

  13. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    Most importantly Ashley no longer has to grow (ala Kimmie) and she's a fierce competitor as mentioned. Alissa lacks spine in competition but I will forever respect everything about her and adore her skating.
    Couple of clean skates does not equal a fierce competitor. Mostly she has a history of messing up.

  14. #754
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    I don't see why anyone would doubt Alissa's determination and strength on the rink; she's been through a lot and frankly to not immediately retire after last Worlds takes a lot of gut. But that doesn't always translate to good competition nerves. Alissa for all her beauty and quiet strength always seemed to get the worst case of stage fright or whatever you want to call it.

  15. #755
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    "She's so cute, I could pinch her cheeks!"

    "She has a twin sister in skating!"

    "She got 800 on her SAT's!"

    "He's deferred Harvard for a year!"

    "They have a cat named 'Wimpy'!"
    "We're back at the World Figure Skating Championships, where there's been an unexpected development. That's Dorothy Hamill, who should be beginning to skate right now. However, while we were away, a West German girl, from Munich, skated, gave quite a good performance. She got tremendous marks, 5.7's and 5.8's, and pulled up to third in the competition of those who have skated so far, but the crowd doesn’t think those marks were good enough, and they’ve been whistling and booing, which is European derision. Dorothy Hamill is really shaken by it, and it looked to us like she was crying and still is. It’s a really tough break for the American girl trying for a World Championship."

    "And that’s very close to Fratianne, but what’s going to determine it now is Artistic Impression, and that’s where Fratianne is going to have an edge. . . . Poetsch will be second, and Fratianne will win it."

    "And, again, the British judge didn’t like what the others did – 4.8 up to a series of 5.6's."

    "It will be interesting to see the ordinals here because she was behind Laetitia Hubert after the Original Program until Tonya Harding skated, and that flipped everybody, and Kerrigan ended up third."

    "Look for some giant, huge, high, enormous second marks! . . . . Oh! How did that happen? How did that happen? . . . . They won that program. There's not a doubt in the place except for maybe a few judges."

    "Frustrated by alleged deals and predetermined placements made by judges, for years Shae-Lynn Bourne and Viktor Kraatz have been fighting for the integrity of their sport."

    "The marks will not be high for her. She had a tough skate. 5.2 to 5.9?!" "My goodness, were they watching the same performance? Maybe that was her mother."

    Last edited by Vagabond; 01-29-2013 at 05:56 AM.

  16. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Rey View Post
    Couple of clean skates does not equal a fierce competitor. Mostly she has a history of messing up.
    ^^ If you are speaking of Ashley Wagner, a couple of less than perfect skates this season, does not erase all that she's accomplished over the course of her career, which btw has been so much more than a "couple of clean skates." It is definitely very easy for fans to sit back and make judgments about skaters, and I include myself in that assessment. However, I realize that what we all have to say is based on our sometimes erroneous perceptions and/ or biased preferences.

    We expect a lot from the athletes we've become accustomed to watching. I wonder how many of us have tried skating ourselves and come away with more respect for what athletes at all levels of the sport accomplish every day.

    In terms of managing one's nerves, I think Alissa, Ashley, Jeremy, Mirai, Caroline, Adam, and most skaters do a better job of managing their nerves in competition than many of us would be able to do skating under high pressure conditions, and having to face cameras and microphones afterward. Even when they fall, even when they are heartbroken upon seeing their marks, many succeed in making the effort to try again. In that respect both Rudy Galindo and Paul Wylie come to mind. Jeremy Abbott and Johnny Weir also come to mind. Alissa Czisny comes to mind, Janet Lynn comes to mind, and so on. If you are a figure skater you are going to fall, and you are going to receive scores that break your heart. Perhaps the more difficult thing for skaters is trying not to allow what judges think, what the media thinks, and what fans think, to crush their spirits or deter them from striving to reach their goals.

    I commend Alissa for not giving up when it would have been so easy for her to do so a long time ago. Kudos to all those who admire her talent, root for her, care about her, and to those who have supported and mentored her. She's achieved a lot and she's overcome tremendous obstacles. I feel fortunate to have experienced what Alissa has given to all fans of skating. A life in figure skating is never a slam dunk.
    Last edited by aftershocks; 01-29-2013 at 06:07 AM.

  17. #757
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    Wagner scored 3 more points in PCS at Nationals than at GPF for a similar performance, with her falls at GPF being a little more disruptive. I don't think the inflation for Wagner at Nationals was unreasonable, keeping in mind her record in the past 12 months.

    Comparing Wagner and Gold head to head for the competition, both made 2 costly mistakes on jumps, with Gold making them at the supposedly costlier segment of the competition. While Gold had higher base values, Wagner was much more mature. If people think Wagner's presentation was contrived, it should also be noted that Gold was absolutely blank throughout. Overall, I agree with Wagner's win and her relative PCS advantage over Gold.

    Given Gao's season, I am surprised USFS decided to promote Zawadzki over her. Gao totally deserved that bronze IMO. I would have had Hicks at 4th and Cesario 5th.

    Siraj is a stiff version of Poykio. She had too many shaky moments but I would still have her 6th over Zawadzki. Zawadzki isn't that good or accomplished a skater who can make mistakes and still place high.

    IMO placements for Nagasu and Zhang are about fair.

    As to the podcast, I respect the opinion of the hosts / guests but I think the real issue isn't so much that the system sucks, but that there isn't enough explanation / information for what is going on. For one thing, the TV / jumbotron screen totally could have shown a break down of the 5 PCS and a short clip of < / << jumps that were called. This way anyone in the audience can enjoy a seemingly clean short program by Zhang but also witness the rotation issues on the big screen and thus understand why she got dinged. On TV, it really is the commentators not doing their job. They need to explain when someone has a lead over another person or when a jump is susceptible to calls. In this regard I think the British / Canadian commentators do a much better job.

    Overall, a rotten Nationals, but glad to see Cesario do well here finally and get to go to Jr Worlds before she ages out! Hope she gets GPs next season (and get a 3/3)!

  18. #758
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    ^^ I agree with some of your assessments, Marco. Still, how could you call it "a rotten Nationals," with all of the great skates, and the high drama of the men's and ladies events? And for me, the pairs event was enjoyable to watch with some thrills and spills in the final as well. And, Meryl & Charlie are drama and excitement personified. And they always set a high standard that other ice dance competitors seem inspired by.

    Even if all of the results didn't turn out as you had hoped for, characterizing the entire championships as "rotten" is a rather "rotten" thing to do. But I still respect some of your other opinions, Marco.

  19. #759
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    IMO Zawadzki well deserved her bronze medal in spite of the mistakes she made. I found Agnes's choreography, body movement transitions and skating transitions to be more complex than Gao's who I felt was rather stroking around the rink most of the time between the technical elements. Agnes also has a wonderful spring off the ice on most if not all of her jumps and doesn't telephone any of them, unlike Gao. I think the US judges got it right.

  20. #760
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    So, here I go with my two cents judgments:

    ^^ I'm not so sure re whether Zawadski "deserved her bronze medal," especially because she made major mistakes in both programs (but I guess falling is not considered as serious a mistake as URs these days, especially if your name is Mirai Nagasu or Caroline Zhang).

    Gao was obviously a bit tight from nerves, but I think overall she performed better than Agnes, and Gao also fared better on the GP circuit this season. To me, Agnes and Gao are fairly even in terms of components because I think both need to work on expressing themselves more fully (but that often comes with maturity). At this point, I think Gao is more musical with more innate interpretive abilities (that she doesn't always maintain throughout). Certainly, IMO Gao has better lines and aesthetic appeal. The thing about Gao that may be holding her back is her more subtle, softer approach to skating, while Agnes has more spring in her jumps and a more athletic approach. But that doesn't mean Gao is not athletic too.

    Bottom line it seems that USFS is more eager to reward "spring in jumps" and triple/ triples from the young up-and-comers.

    In any case, the judges have spoken and the results will stand.

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