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  1. #41
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    It's one of those instances where Midori Ito could have won the long program under COP even if Witt was given a full point higher ( or more) on every component mark.

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    Let's get real, Ito's "lack of artistry" was that she had so much technical content that there was no time left, like a CoP program, to just skate around looking pretty a la Witt posing in all her glory and adding little moments of butt shack dancing a la Oksana. All Ito's individual elements would have deserved positive GOEs, including the Ina Bauer into 3/3, her choreography was good in the sense that the element layout on the ice allowed for seamless blending, she had good speed, and her performance was good enough to earn a standing ovation, and even Peggy Fleming said that Midori was charismatic that night, even if she, Midori, was interpreting her music by skating to her music a la Dorothy Hamill rather than performing a drama on ice a la Witt.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 11-27-2012 at 04:05 AM.

  3. #43

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    I always found Ito very musical. Where she was lacking, imo, was her line and extension.

    She really set the 6.0 system on a path to 'growing up' as much as it could. How anyone other than Manley had tech marks w/in .2 of her is just wrong.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I always found Ito very musical. Where she was lacking, imo, was her line and extension.
    ITA, and she would continue to develop as an artist as her career progressed, her "Rain Medley" exhibition is superb.

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    ^but that "Rain Medley" was an exhibition . . . as much an exhibition as Witt's Carmen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I always found Ito very musical. Where she was lacking, imo, was her line and extension.
    Compared to who? Midori was no Sasha Cohen or Shizuka Arakawa, but nobody at the 1988 Olympics were as good as them in terms of line and extension, but Ito had a better layback spin and spiral than let us say Yuna Kim; Yuna had a hideous leg position in both elements. Furthermore, I can't say that Witt had particularly nice positions in terms of line and extension except to the extent that the person performing them was pretty.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 11-27-2012 at 04:19 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    Yep, Liz's program just does not hold up. She is 22 and a half years old, and is doing a little-girl, cutesy/perky number to tinkly piano carnival music wearing a pink dress that maybe I could tolerate in a novice competition. It was way too much, and I almost had to take some insulin I was going into sugar shock. She had a nice lutz, and a great 2axel, and she seemed to love her 2flips since she did three of them, but I just don't think she was anywhere close to Midori Ito that night. In retrospect, Ito was the class of the field with regard to her SP and LP, and it looks like a no-brainer now. But good for Liz for having her shining moment in front of a home crowd, that's what dreams are about. I am a bit annoyed after SLC when she was going on the air stating she should have won the gold but for political judging, and maybe she should be retroactively awarded a gold medal. She lost me there.
    I think Manley would still hang onto silver even if Ito beat her in the free skate. But it would have been right.

    For me, Manley only placed as high as she did BECAUSE of political judging.

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    duplicate

  9. #49
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    These would have been my SP and LP placings in Calgary for the ladies event:

    SP: 1. Ito 5.9 tech, 5.8 art
    2. Thomas 5.8 tech, 5.8 art
    3. Kadavy 5.7 tech, 5.9 art
    4. Witt 5.6 tech, 5.9 art
    5. Manley 5.6 tech, 5.7 art
    6. Trenary 5.5 tech, 5.7 art

    LP: 1. Ito 6.0 tech, 5.9 art
    2. Manley 5.9 tech, 5.8 art
    3. Witt 5.7 tech, 5.9 art
    4. Trenary 5.6, 5.8 art
    5. Thomas 5.6 tech, 5.7 art

    If the figures placings remained exactly the same the final results would have been:

    Gold- Manley 6.4 factored points
    Silver- Witt 6.4 factored points (but Manley wins tiebreaker between them which is higher LP placing)
    Bronze- Thomas 7.0 factored points
    4th- Ito 7.4 factored points
    5th- Trenary 9.4 factored points

    Wow I just realized how close the results would have been inspite of the figures and Thomas's bombing the long in this game. Had I placed Thomas over Trenary in the long she would have won the gold in this case. Meanwhile had I placed Thomas below Kadavy in the short, Ito would have won the bronze in this case. I wonder too if Thomas would have done a better LP had she beaten Witt in the SP as she should have, perhaps even by multiple spots as she arguably should have. Had she a somewhat comfortable lead it might have relaxed her more and she would have skated a performance like U.S Nationals and in that case easily won? Maybe just wishful thinking.

    As for Manley her whole attitude in her book was a major turn off. I was a fan of her until then, but insantly became a non fan after getting about halfway through her book. She also whines endlessly about her relationship with Scott Gross and what a terrible person and boyfriend he was to her, blah blah, yet she stayed with him for many years. I am sure he was probably no saint, but I feel sorry for him, whoever he is, as I suspect he is being painted with an unfair brush, as she probably gave those stories a slant on reality like she seems to have given everything a slant on reality based on her book.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    Compared to who? Midori was no Sasha Cohen or Shizuka Arakawa, but nobody at the 1988 Olympics were as good as them in terms of line and extension, but Ito had a better layback spin and spiral than let us say Yuna Kim; Yuna had a hideous leg position in both elements. Furthermore, I can't say that Witt had particularly nice positions in terms of line and extension except to the extent that the person performing them was pretty.
    LOL Witt was no ballerina at all. Most of her positions were plain ugly in fact, some were plain gross. In terms of polish and beauty she was about 5% of a Janet Lynn, Sasha Cohen, or Michelle Kwan. Her choreography was never that good either, nobody coached by Juette Mueller's ever was for that matter. I guess her artistry was based on her theatrical ability on the ice.

    I would say the best in terms of line and extension at the 88 Olympics though was Kadavy by far, Trenary probably a fairly distant 2nd. Oh yeah Kondrashova was also nice in those areas, even though she was always too much a nervous wreck on the ice to show all her talents. I imagine she was a fabulous practice skater though.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    ITA, and she would continue to develop as an artist as her career progressed, her "Rain Medley" exhibition is superb.
    Love, love, love Midori's "Rain" medley!

    All in all , the Calgary Olympics is still my favorite Olympics (winter or summer). After that, I was no longer a casual fs fan.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    LOL Witt was no ballerina at all. Most of her positions were plain ugly in fact, some were plain gross. In terms of polish and beauty she was about 5% of a Janet Lynn, Sasha Cohen, or Michelle Kwan. Her choreography was never that good either, nobody coached by Juette Mueller's ever was for that matter. I guess her artistry was based on her theatrical ability on the ice.

    I would say the best in terms of line and extension at the 88 Olympics though was Kadavy by far, Trenary probably a fairly distant 2nd. Oh yeah Kondrashova was also nice in those areas, even though she was always too much a nervous wreck on the ice to show all her talents. I imagine she was a fabulous practice skater though.
    This.

  13. #53
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    Futher to your analysis, if you factor their compulsory figures results into the equation, Debi would have 2.0 points after the short. Witt would have 3.4 and Manley 4.4.

    I think Debi, knowing the buffer she had between herself and Witt, wouldn't have felt the same pressure that she needed to win the long to win the gold.

    The other scenario is that Manley was never a pressure skater, and if she knew she was in a position to take the title, I don't see her skating as well as she did.
    Last edited by essence_of_soy; 11-27-2012 at 12:04 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by essence_of_soy View Post
    Futher to your analysis, if you factor their compulsory figures results into the equation, Debi would have 2.0 points after the short. Witt would have 3.4 and Manley 4.4.

    I think Debi, knowing the buffer she had between herself and Witt, wouldn't have felt the same pressure that she needed to win the long to win the gold.

    The other scenario is that Manley was never a pressure skater, and if she knew she was in a position to take the title, I don't see her skating as well as she did.
    Very good points both. It might be Thomas was a victim of Witt's overmarking in the rounds proceding the long program, and Manley was an indirect beneficiary of it.

    I wont say anything too much about the figures results, but I did hear many people who felt Thomas should have won the figures over Ivanova (she did win the last 2, but was surprisingly down in 4th after the 1st), and from what I saw of Witt's figures I cant believe she was 3rd, especialy over strong figures performers like Trenary and Leistner who were only 5th and 6th.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    I always found Ito very musical. Where she was lacking, imo, was her line and extension.

    She really set the 6.0 system on a path to 'growing up' as much as it could. How anyone other than Manley had tech marks w/in .2 of her is just wrong.
    The only thing Ito lacked was lines & extension, and given her body type she was never going to develop those compared to other top skaters, but she expressed the music really well, and her personality & charm on the ice was unmatched among singles. She had excellent spins, fast & centered, and she had plenty of transitions (e.g. spread eagles into 3 loop). She could land a triple jump and almost immediately get into a spin.

  16. #56

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    I really hope Ito knows just how much her skating had held up and how beloved she is among the fanbase.

  17. #57
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    Okay, Ito is my all time favorite skater bar none (Kwan is in a respectable second with a bunch of people elbowing each other for third).

    But.... I don't think her SP and LP were that undermarked. It's hard to see a 1988 program with 1988 eyes in 2012. By the standards of the time she was second or third in the SP and probably no more than second in the LP.

    One crucial point (that gives an idea of what I mean). Ito skated 'young' in that youthful exuberance was a big part of her presentation at a time when ladies were striving to skate as adult women. Ito's skating (like Lynn's Albright's and Zayak's) has aged exceptionally well but it wasn't the total package then that it seems to be now.

    I do agree that Witt was overmarked in all three stages (Peggy Fleming all but says so out loud about figures), Manley was overmarked in the short (postcard spins!) and Thomas was overmarked in the long (which didn't make any difference in final standings - I've done the math and IIRC she could have been fifth or maybe even sixth and still been on the podium).

  18. #58
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    How was Manley's presentation more womenly and mature than Ito though. She skated to many cuts of cartoonish like music and did alot of cartoonish type poses and steps. Her jumps and spins and energy and performance level were all great in her LP, but her actual technical content was closer to Witt than it was to Ito, despite doing a triple lutz, no triple flip, only 4 triples, no triple jump combinations at all (even Witt did a triple toe-double toe atleast). Thomas had she skated clean had more technical difficulty IMO with 5 triples, and a triple-triple, even if nothing harder than a triple loop. I find Manley's skate in Calgary overrated, her LP at the 86 Worlds (which she should have won that phase hands down there), and 86 St. Ivel (which she would have won the 87 Worlds had she duplicated there, as she was in position to unlike Calgary), were both far better IMO, especialy on the presentation side. Still was great for her to have one of her great performances with a World or Olympic medal on the line finally though, rather than in cases like the ones I mentioned where she had nothing much on the line.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 11-27-2012 at 09:59 PM.

  19. #59
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    I think that Manley's Calgary LP was greater than the sum of its parts (some of which weren't maybe that great). But almost everyone was skating to badly edited and often wildly clashing cuts of music then (including Witt and Thomas). But the whole thing holds together remarkably well (to the extent that a viewer remembers 1988 standards in which Witt was cutting edge artistry).

    It wasn't Mnaley's very best but it was close enough on home turf for the whole thing to be irresistable to anyone with eyes and a heart. The single biggest highlight was the music/choreography into and out of the triple salchow - state of the art in 1988 (and only kind of better than average now).

    Ito's free skate (as wonderful as it was) was more for the ages than the time. In terms of jumps it was the 6.0 equivalent of doing too many passes and not getting credit for them. And the rest holds up so well because Ito basically redefined ladies skating not because it was what judges were looking for at the time (which was Witt, Witt and more Witt). The true pioneers are never rewarded at the time.

  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    These would have been my SP and LP placings in Calgary for the ladies event:

    LP: 1. Ito 6.0 tech, 5.9 art
    I too love Midori but... hmmmmmm...
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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