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  1. #21

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    I love Katarina's description of her LP, she's so brutally honest! IMO, Liz should have won the ladies' free (which she did), Midori 2nd, Katarina 3rd, Jill 4th. I'm not even sure Debi deserved as high as 5th in the free. I would have been fine with (overall), Gold: Liz; Silver: Katarina; Bronze: Midori.

    Brians: IMO, Boitano absolutely deserved the win. I also felt he had the superior artistry in his Oly programs.

    I wasn't really into Pairs and Ice Dance at the time, although I could see that G/G were heads above everyone else.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    I also would have loved Liz Manley in first place. And I adored Midori Ito too - though I would have to go back and watch all the programs to know where I think she should have placed. I do remember thinking overall how odd it was how little of an impact technical content seemed to have in the Ladies' competition.

    I appreciated them but never got the love for B and B and far preferred K and P.

    At the time and under 6.0 and how things were marked - I agree that Boitano deserved the win. But when I go back and watch their programs now - I am surprised by how much I prefer Orser's programs.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    G&G absolutely deserved to win the gold, every move was crisp, clean and technically perfect and they did an excellent job presenting their routine. Personally though, I prefer the choreography and program construction of V&V's routines, and I'm happy that V&V were able to end their career with a final world championship title at the 1988 World Championships. I believe the SelMaks were also coming off an injury as well. Love that team as well-too bad about Oleg's fall in the SP.
    I agree with you. Despite the use of "The Final Countdown" mixed with Snowstorm which just reeks of 80s skating music construction, I thought V/V had a much more interesting routine. I was also really annoyed by Katia's expression throughout the LP.

    I appreciate G/G's technical mastery and their incomparable unison. However, I never liked any of their amateur routines other than Moonlight Sonata (which they did after going pro for a few years). Performance, interpretation, and musically, I found them to be a bit vacant.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 11-26-2012 at 07:29 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I agree with you. Despite the use of "The Final Countdown" mixed with Snowstorm which just reeks of 80s skating music construction, I thought V/V had a much more interesting routine. I was also really annoyed by Katia's expression throughout the LP.
    ITA, in fact I was about to post the same thing wrt to V/V. In retrospect I find it hard to listen to The Final Countdown, and would prefer to watch that program on mute. So 80s.... I did like the violin slow section. They were quite different as a pair.

    I was 15 during Calgary and was dating a girl who looked like a blond Katia Gordeeva. Even I kind of fell in love with her then. Her facial expressions were a bit OTT at times, but then again I've experienced Krylova since then, so anyone else is muted in my mind.

    I went back and watched Manley v Ito again. I'm really not seeing the disparity. By any criteria of presentation, Ito sure had it. The stadium was clapping for her even during MITF. It wasn't only about jumps. She had 'presentation'. Sure, no one would confuse her free leg to that of say, Sasha Cohen, but she lit up that crowd in Calgary. She should have been first in the LP, and at worst second behind home favorite Manley. Manley was weaker than I remembered which surprised me. Her cutesy Irma La Douce number just was BLAH. And it looked like she UR'd and 2 footed her 3loop, plus she had not even one jump combination compared to Ito's 3T3T, 2A1/2L3S and Ito had a clean Loop, Flip, a second Sal, and a second Toe. Ito creamed her IMO. Unfortunately JSF had no clout back then.
    Last edited by Alex Forrest; 11-26-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  5. #25

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    I hate Liz Manley's program. Her jumps were impressive and I do like she got her moment to shine in her home country. However, that whole routine (music, choreography, etc.) was just super obnoxious.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    ITA, in fact I was about to post the same thing wrt to V/V. In retrospect I find it hard to listen to The Final Countdown, and would prefer to watch that program on mute. So 80s.... I did like the violin slow section. They were quite different as a pair.

    I was 15 during Calgary and was dating a girl who looked like a blond Katia Gordeeva. Even I kind of fell in love with her then. Her facial expressions were a bit OTT at times, but then again I've experienced Krylova since then, so anyone else is muted in my mind.

    I went back and watched Manley v Ito again. I'm really not seeing the disparity. By any criteria of presentation, Ito sure had it. The stadium was clapping for her even during MITF. It wasn't only about jumps. She had 'presentation'. Sure, no one would confuse her free leg to that of say, Sasha Cohen, but she lit up that crowd in Calgary. She should have been first in the LP, and at worst second behind home favorite Manley. Manley was weaker than I remembered which surprised me. Her cutesy Irma La Douce number just was BLAH. And it looked like she UR'd and 2 footed her 3loop, plus she had not even one jump combination compared to Ito's 3T3T, 2A1/2L3S and Ito had a clean Loop, Flip, a second Sal, and a second Toe. Ito creamed her IMO. Unfortunately JSF had no clout back then.
    I also think Ito creamed Manley. Not only did she have way more difficult content in terms of the jumps but her spins were incredibly strong, her edges were incredibly strong, deep, and fast and the choreography was amazing (spread eagle into triple loop, ina bauer into a triple toe-triple toe combination, 2 falling leaf jumps (split jumps taking off of one foot) into a double axel right at the end and then straight into her amazing scratch spin, etc. And like I said, the sheer drama and excitement she was able to create as well as her charm and charisma should count towards artistry (even though so many people were absolutely unwilling to give her credit for it).

  7. #27

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    These games spoiled us.
    Keeper of Nathalie Pechelat's bitchface.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I hate Liz Manley's program. Her jumps were impressive and I do like she got her moment to shine in her home country. However, that whole routine (music, choreography, etc.) was just super obnoxious.
    My thought exactly.
    That is disappointing because I don't think Katarina should have won, but I don't like Liz's program !

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    My thought exactly.
    That is disappointing because I don't think Katarina should have won, but I don't like Liz's program !
    Liz won the LP; Katarina won overall, and IMO that's fair. Kat did well in all 3 parts of the competition. I actually preferred Kat's Carmen to Liz's perky program. I admit that Liz had more difficult technical content.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I love Katarina's description of her LP, she's so brutally honest! IMO, Liz should have won the ladies' free (which she did), Midori 2nd, Katarina 3rd, Jill 4th. I'm not even sure Debi deserved as high as 5th in the free. I would have been fine with (overall), Gold: Liz; Silver: Katarina; Bronze: Midori.

    Brians: IMO, Boitano absolutely deserved the win. I also felt he had the superior artistry in his Oly programs.

    I am not so sure about Boitano's 'absolutely deserved win'. At that time the tie breaker was technical marks, and that's what Boitano won on. Had the tie breaker been artistic marks (they called them artistic those days, not presentation), Orser would have won. Orser opened the door technically by landing only one triple axel; the two triple axels in the LP was something that he started, but decided not to do the second 3A because he was tired. That cost him. Despite the repeated replays of his flawed 3f by our media, that would not have cost him that much, had he landed the second 3A. Boitano did have a slight two-foot on one of his 3A's. IMO both were fantastic performances, and based on the rules those days, Boitano's win was fair.

    I wasn't really into Pairs and Ice Dance at the time, although I could see that G/G were heads above everyone else.
    My memories of 1988 Olys are special because that's when I became a real fan of FS and started taking skating lessons.

    What really stood out for me-

    Midori Ito was sensational and made me an instant fan of her.

    G&G were beautiful and a joy to watch. Katia was just 16, and adorable. They made me a fan of pairs skating, and it remained that way for a long long time (until COP ruined pairs skating).

    Battle of the Brians actually lived up to the hype. I will always remember Boitano's triumphant reactiion at the end of his LP, and Orser's nod of disappointment, on the medal podium.

    Battle of the Carmens turned out to be disappointing, even more so because I really wanted Debie to skate well and win the gold.

    I disagree with you on the 4th & 5th placements. Debie actually deserved 4th place in the LP (I would have placed Midori 1st, then Kat, Liz). Jill Trenary had a poor LP skate. She did mostly doubles. No way she should have placed above Debie.

    Unlike a lot of posters here, I liked B&B's FD. It was fast and furious. I liked Klimova-Ponomarenko's beauty in all phases of ice dance. I would have been OK if they had won the gold, but did not have a negative reaction to B&B's OGM.

    In the summer of 1988, I was able to attend many live shows in Sun Valley (I lived in Idaho back then) and watch all these Olympic medallists (and some non-medallists) skate live. That was super special.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by paskatefan View Post
    I doubt that he's still bitter. I get the impression that he's come to terms with it, and am thrilled that he is having much success as a coach.
    I agree.
    I believe that it took a long time for him to deal with his feelings; and come to understand why Brian Boitano won that night.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    My memories of 1988 Olys are special because that's when I became a real fan of FS and started taking skating lessons.

    What really stood out for me-

    Midori Ito was sensational and made me an instant fan of her.

    G&G were beautiful and a joy to watch. Katia was just 16, and adorable. They made me a fan of pairs skating, and it remained that way for a long long time (until COP ruined pairs skating).

    Battle of the Brians actually lived up to the hype. I will always remember Boitano's triumphant reactiion at the end of his LP, and Orser's nod of disappointment, on the medal podium.

    Battle of the Carmens turned out to be disappointing, even more so because I really wanted Debie to skate well and win the gold.

    I disagree with you on the 4th & 5th placements. Debie actually deserved 4th place in the LP (I would have placed Midori 1st, then Kat, Liz). Jill Trenary had a poor LP skate. She did mostly doubles. No way she should have placed above Debie.

    Unlike a lot of posters here, I liked B&B's FD. It was fast and furious. I liked Klimova-Ponomarenko's beauty in all phases of ice dance. I would have been OK if they had won the gold, but did not have a negative reaction to B&B's OGM.

    In the summer of 1988, I was able to attend many live shows in Sun Valley (I lived in Idaho back then) and watch all these Olympic medallists (and some non-medallists) skate live. That was super special.

    I agree with nearly all of that. However regarding Debbie vs Jill in Calgary, Jill still did one more triple than Debbie managed, and her program while watered down was clean and not marred by the breaks of Debi's various stumbles and mistakes. So I most definitely would have placed Jill over Debbie in the LP, having her atleast .1 higher on both the first and second mark. Debi's SP was fabulous and should have won the SP over Witt, but her LP was quite overscored, a 5.8 for technical merit as a couple judges gave her was simply absurd. Factoring in all 3 phases of the competition though it is unlikely there is anyway to have placed Trenary (or Ito considering her figures) above Thomas for the bronze though. I suspect Jill was undermarked in figures, especialy after seeing Witt's laughable figures which somehow placed 3rd, and she was marked harshly in the SP considering she landed a triple flip combo mostly clean, but even all that and beating Thomas in the LP probably still wouldnt have been enough. Ito should have placed top 3 in the SP and top 2 in the LP, but even winning both wouldnt have been enough for her either.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I agree with you. Despite the use of "The Final Countdown" mixed with Snowstorm which just reeks of 80s skating music construction, I thought V/V had a much more interesting routine. I was also really annoyed by Katia's expression throughout the LP.

    I appreciate G/G's technical mastery and their incomparable unison. However, I never liked any of their amateur routines other than Moonlight Sonata (which they did after going pro for a few years). Performance, interpretation, and musically, I found them to be a bit vacant.
    What would 80s skating be without the jarring music cuts? They're as synonymous with 80s skating as lycra costumes and the Battle of the Carmens.

    V&V were a great pair team. I love their transitions in the LP and Elena totally rocked it out in the headband during the SP. The SelMaks are one of my favorite pair teams of all time, but the 1988 Olympics just wasn't their time. But what was with the cameras following Larisa to the backstage trailer after they received their dismal SP scores?! Those immediate post skate interviews in the K&C would have annoyed the hell out of me if I were a skater.

    I absolutely love G&G's professional routines, but with the exception of their fun 1987 Jazzy Piano SP, I find their early amateur routines rather boring and choreographically empty. As impressive and impecable as their unision, basic skating, twist lift and throws were, I'd personally rather watch routines by V&V, S&M, or even Wachsman & Waggoner. I do have to say that I thought their presentation was actually really good-but I think I'm responding more to Katia's exuberant personality on the ice and ability to project that joy, rather than their musicality or interpretive skills.
    Last edited by lulu; 11-26-2012 at 07:53 PM.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    However regarding Debbie vs Jill in Calgary, Jill still did one more triple than Debbie managed, and her program while watered down was clean and not marred by the breaks of Debi's various stumbles and mistakes.
    Jill's program appeared clean Because she did mostly doubles. Debie challenged herself with triples, and her only mistakes were- 1) a stumble on the planned 3-3 combination (she stumbled on the second jump, but it was not a major mistake, like a fall), 2) major mistake on the triple loop late in the program. I don't remember her having any other mistake or stumble, and she had improved her artistry quite a bit. Jill was always pleasant to watch, but did not always deliver the jumps. This was one of the times.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I hate Liz Manley's program. Her jumps were impressive and I do like she got her moment to shine in her home country. However, that whole routine (music, choreography, etc.) was just super obnoxious.
    Yep, Liz's program just does not hold up. She is 22 and a half years old, and is doing a little-girl, cutesy/perky number to tinkly piano carnival music wearing a pink dress that maybe I could tolerate in a novice competition. It was way too much, and I almost had to take some insulin I was going into sugar shock. She had a nice lutz, and a great 2axel, and she seemed to love her 2flips since she did three of them, but I just don't think she was anywhere close to Midori Ito that night. In retrospect, Ito was the class of the field with regard to her SP and LP, and it looks like a no-brainer now. But good for Liz for having her shining moment in front of a home crowd, that's what dreams are about. I am a bit annoyed after SLC when she was going on the air stating she should have won the gold but for political judging, and maybe she should be retroactively awarded a gold medal. She lost me there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Jill's program appeared clean Because she did mostly doubles. Debie challenged herself with triples, and her only mistakes were- 1) a stumble on the planned 3-3 combination (she stumbled on the second jump, but it was not a major mistake, like a fall), 2) major mistake on the triple loop late in the program. I don't remember her having any other mistake or stumble, and she had improved her artistry quite a bit. Jill was always pleasant to watch, but did not always deliver the jumps. This was one of the times.
    Well, Debi didn't have one clean triple jump pass. She did go for the 3/3 but messed up the second one. Her 3sal-2toe she put her foot down at the end, the 3loop a fall out, and a touch down on her final 3sal. Plus it was not an inspired program that night, understandably. I always liked Jill, and even though she doubled out two of her jumps, her skating was secure and fast and not marred by any major mistakes. What surprises me about Jill is that up until 1988 she was a very strong jumper. Her jumps were big, covered the ice, and were landed with authority. Suddenly in 1988 they became off and insecure. It doesn't look like her body really changed that year, I never could figure out where the old Jill jumps went.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Jill's program appeared clean Because she did mostly doubles. Debie challenged herself with triples, and her only mistakes were- 1) a stumble on the planned 3-3 combination (she stumbled on the second jump, but it was not a major mistake, like a fall), 2) major mistake on the triple loop late in the program. I don't remember her having any other mistake or stumble, and she had improved her artistry quite a bit. Jill was always pleasant to watch, but did not always deliver the jumps. This was one of the times.
    Debi also stumbled badly out of her last triple salchow. If you give Debi credit for rotating and not falling on 5 triples, including a triple loop and a triple-triple, and for in general attacking the program more than Trenary, I can understand I suppose. It was a 5-4 split between them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Forrest View Post
    Well, Debi didn't have one clean triple jump pass. She did go for the 3/3 but messed up the second one. Her 3sal-2toe she put her foot down at the end, the 3loop a fall out, and a touch down on her final 3sal. Plus it was not an inspired program that night, understandably. I always liked Jill, and even though she doubled out two of her jumps, her skating was secure and fast and not marred by any major mistakes. What surprises me about Jill is that up until 1988 she was a very strong jumper. Her jumps were big, covered the ice, and were landed with authority. Suddenly in 1988 they became off and insecure. It doesn't look like her body really changed that year, I never could figure out where the old Jill jumps went.
    This is true. It is too bad as her official window for real success didnt open until after 88, and that is when her jumps went down.

    I feel sorry for Jill as it seems her skating and image has not aged well and peoples reviews of her today are less than flattering, while her career highlight, the World title, is vilified. I think she is a skater who got stuck between 2 eras. She looked like skatings next big thing when she upset Thomas and Kadavy to win the 87 Nationals, but then fell well back at Worlds. She then had to wait her turn behind veterans like Witt, Thomas, and Manley, with virtually no chance of major podiums even skating her best. Then had to compete with the all time greatest jumper Ito for a couple years, then figures were fazed out and she could not compete with her American teammates who did many more triples than her like Yamaguchi, Harding, and Kerrigan, and also had any of her chances wrecked by injuries.

  19. #39

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    I have fond memories of this Olympics. I loved Midori Ito and the Duchesnays. I remember one of my male co-workers comment the day after the pairs short in reference to Sel/Mark. He said that he bet Markov had to sleep on the couch that night.

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    Glad Manley had her night, but watching Ito on youtube, I really can't justify Manley beating her. I certainly can't justify Witt beating her.

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