What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

[Coco]

Chen Lu - now there is a skater who would have struggled a bit with COP, at least on the spins, and also with URs.

Of course, she would have been medaling at lot earlier, imo, if COP had been in place in the early 90s.

There's what skaters did under 6.0, and what they were capable of. I think Kwan could have made the necessary adjustments to the more recent versions of COP. But I don't think Chen could have adjusted. Who knows, maybe I'm selling her short.

Neither would have done well under the 2006 rules, as far as spins are concerned. That version of COP was insane.

[RD]

To flip things around a bit, I think a skater like Akiko Suzuki would have thrived under the old 6.0 system.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Chen Lu - now there is a skater who would have struggled a bit with COP, at least on the spins, and also with URs.

Of course, she would have been medaling at lot earlier, imo, if COP had been in place in the early 90s.

There's what skaters did under 6.0, and what they were capable of. I think Kwan could have made the necessary adjustments to the more recent versions of COP. But I don't think Chen could have adjusted. Who knows, maybe I'm selling her short.

Neither would have done well under the 2006 rules, as far as spins are concerned. That version of COP was insane.

What? You don't like seeing 4 Biellmans or 4 Donut spins in one LP?

[kwanette]

What? You don't like seeing 4 Biellmans or 4 Donut spins in one LP?

[attyfan]

...
1996 Worlds between Kwan and Chen under COP would have been interesting. Kwan wouldnt have even been able to throw in that 7th triple.

I've always dreamed that, under CoP, Kwan and Chen would have tied ... CoP doesn't have the same prohibition on ties as (I have heard) existed under the 6.0 system. IIRC, the technical elements in their respective SPs were pretty much the same, as well as having similar elements (less Kwan't last triple) in the FS

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Didn't Chen do two triple flips or am I misremembering?

Edited to add:

NVM, I just watched it. She did 8 jumping passes (I don't think the double axel after her Salchow counts as a sequence) with two Lutzes, a Triple Flip/Double Toe combo, and two double axels.

[Kwantumleap]

I've always dreamed that, under CoP, Kwan and Chen would have tied ... CoP doesn't have the same prohibition on ties as (I have heard) existed under the 6.0 system. IIRC, the technical elements in their respective SPs were pretty much the same, as well as having similar elements (less Kwan't last triple) in the FS

I'm a Kwan fan that has evolved about the 96 Worlds. I always enjoyed Chen's LP while still thinking Kwan's better, but looking back I'm surprised Kwan won. I loved Salome, but even with slightly better spin technique or whatever Kwan had better at that point (was it a 7th triple?), I would have given the title to Chen. Her complete package of artistry, interpretation, and seamless technical content was a work of art.

[briancoogaert]

I'm a Kwan fan that has evolved about the 96 Worlds. I always enjoyed Chen's LP while still thinking Kwan's better, but looking back I'm surprised Kwan won. I loved Salome, but even with slightly better spin technique or whatever Kwan had better at that point (was it a 7th triple?), I would have given the title to Chen. Her complete package of artistry, interpretation, and seamless technical content was a work of art.

Probably because the the title could have been either way.
I would have given it to Lu Chen the night of the LP, because of the emotion and beauty of her program. But then, when I watched the both in the exhibition, my feeling was different, and I was impressed by Michelle Kwan, by her consistency, hard work and different styles, at 15 !
So, in fact, after watching the LP again, I think the judging was fair !

[Marco]

Under COP, Chen's spins would have been majorly dinged.

[briancoogaert]

Under COP, Chen's spins would have been majorly dinged.

Of course, but under CoP she would have made an effort to turn her spins better.
And btw, IMO, she had interesting positions and nice lines in her spins.

[taf2002]

I always felt that some of Chen's spin positions were a jarring note in her programs. But her LP in 96 was a beauty. I think her poor performance vs Kwan in the GP had something to do with her loss at worlds. If first place was a toss-up, the judges went with consistancy over the season.

As for the original question here, you can't compare Kwan's artistry under 6.0 to anyone's under COP. But if you did, Ashley's comparative lack of MITFs plus the basic difference in their stroking come to mind. And of course, Kwan didn't regularly 2-foot.

[Marco]

Of course, but under CoP she would have made an effort to turn her spins better.
And btw, IMO, she had interesting positions and nice lines in her spins.

It was always a weak area for her. 6.0 never cared too much though. Under COP, she wouldn't have an acceptable sit spin. Rotations would also be a problem.

[VIETgrlTerifa]

She spins seriously did regress in 1996. They were much better in 1995.

[judgejudy27]

I thought in Chen's 96 LP her flying camel and layback spins were strong. Her combination spin was weak though.

[Vash01]

Under COP, Chen's spins would have been majorly dinged.

Skaters prepare for the rules that are in effect when they are competing. Had she been competing under COP, she would have worked on her spins. Same applies to a lot of skaters that grew up and competed under 6.0, and then COP happened. We can't really judge the old programs with the new rules.

[iarispiralllyof]

Hmm, I will be the thinking man/woman's PeterG. Do I think Michelle Kwan had such more innate musicality or "artistry" than Ashley Wagner. Well, no. Michelle was very studied in her competitive career. She had a great team. I get so annoyed when posters say "Kwan skated with HEART". So what? You know what I think Kwan's appeal was? We saw her as a tiny gangly pre-teen jumper who through hard work and discipline created GREAT programs. Was she 'more artistic'? Hell no. She was trained well. I respect that. I could watch her all the way up to Nagano. Her programs were complex and interesting and not just Slutskaya Chorus Line crap. What I object to is this *myth* of a Kwan as artist. The last several years of the end of her career her programs were identical, there was nothing artistic. When her fanwhores claim how much she skated from 'the heart' is really to me how her fans reacted to her skating from 'their heart'. She wasn't doing anything but being Michelle Kwan, and I'm sorry, a "SMIRAL" does not a Bolero masterpiece make.

This whole crap about Kwan being such an artiste is sickening IMO. It was her fans who fell in love with the girl/woman she is, and she has proven herself to be a wonderful person in society. But to watch her barebones by number Bolero, Rodriguo et al and say she was 'such an artist' is such BS. She landed triple jumps consistently and won an insane amount of titles due to her triple jumps. To say Kwan 'skates from the heart' while dissing Wagner is craziness. I was impressed with Kwan's Salome, Majal, and Angelica. The rest, not so much. I was impressed with Wagner's Swan and this year Delilah, both are skaters who are hungry to win and acquired teams to get them to that point.

I never saw Kwan as an 'artiste'. She had too many limitations. Her fans saw her skating from THEIR hearts. Kwan really didn't put anything down after maybe 2001 to classify her as an artiste. Big difference.

PeterG, I match your 100, and raise you 500.

I feel like you contradict yourself. You acknowledge that her programs pre-2001 could theoretically be labelled as artistic, but then you claim that she was flat-out never an artist simply because her programs post-2001 deteriorated. MOST Kwan fans and non-fans alike agree that her programs 96-2001 were far more complex choreographically. This is a given. How does the fact that she declined artistically over an unprecedentedly long 10 year amateur career erase the 5 years or so where she churned out interesting, complex and unique programs? Most skaters have nowhere near the long career Michelle had, so 5 years of artistic programs should surely be enough to establish Michelle as an artistic skater.
If you re-watch competitions from 1996, 1997, 1998 - few skaters had such intricate programs set to such interesting music.

It's also well acknowledged among both fans and non-fans that Michelle had some of the most artistic exhibition programs (again, mostly 2001 and before). Do you know how many non-fans I see who thought she was overrated technically sing her praises all the time when they stumble upon old exhibition programs she did? (Hands, Dante's Prayer, Winter)
Back when pro-skating was alive, many of the older skaters developed their artistry further during the pro competitions. But Michelle's case was special in that she had both (relatively) difficult and artistically compelling exhibition programs during her amateur prime.

And by the by? Emoting is a part of artistry and "acting" on the ice. She specifically didn't use a smiral in The Feeling Begins for obvious artistic/atmospheric reasons. After her programs became extremely watered down, she started to add these footwork sequences at the climax which were bursting with emotion. But alas, artistry as with the ability to emote are all subjective.

[Vash01]

deleted post

[jenny12]

This entire thread reminds me of the comparisons between Lebron James and Michael Jordan being done in NBA circles. They are both great players, but Jordan was on a whole 'nother planet. There will be only one Michael Jordan.

I agree with that in terms of championships, there will be only one Michael Jordan. But in terms of specific skills, there are definitely certain areas that Lebron James is more effective than Jordan like passing and athleticism. However, the championships are ultimately what tell the story which is true of Michelle Kwan. There is no one that can come close to her consistency and longevity, not to mention her overall presence on the ice.

[IceAlisa]

All I can say is I quit watching Taj Mahal after 2+ minutes because I was bored. If you are going to compare an exotic program of hers, why TM, why not TFB? By then MK had a much more commanding presence on the ice. OTOH, this season I love S&D as skated at TEB, I find it intense and powerful, which does remind me of Kwan's TFB and has the same "I am woman, hear me roar" quality.

As to style, they are very different outside these two programs I mentioned.

[TheIronLady]

Some of IJS was heavily influenced by Kwan via Frank Carroll.