What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

[l'etoile]

Frankly it is amazing to see that this thread has lasted this much. I just cannot help keep thinking that the seemingly resemblence to MK Ashley provokes comes from the fact that she studied and digged into Michelle's performances, hence, it is sort of learnt habit of hers. I do think though that as time goes, Ashley will find her own aura in her skating now that she knows how to put things down on ice.

[kwanette]

I specifically remember an interview with Kwan when she waxed poetically and explained that she put her heart on her sleeve or was giving her heart to the audience. It wasn't a 'mis-fact'. Just because Dick Button said it does not negate that Kwan also did. IIRC it was probably at 99 Nationals and she was wearing a fuzzy bluish sweater.

This is the interview that you meant. No heart on her sleeve, rather in the palm of her hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsjoojhAcHk

[dinakt]

I've been pondering Michelle's enigma for a bit. To me, it is that she was harmonious, miraculously so. The edges, the exquisite finish on every element, the openess to music and to audience. I don't see her as the greatest artistic woman skater; to my eyes, what Kostner has done last year is leaning more towards pure art than what Michelle did. But Michelle, like a diamond, shone from all sides. Jumps, musicality, edges, positions, joy of skating, ability to relate to audience. Beautiful harmony.
I am not quite ready to talk about Ashley. She is a different kind of skater, a go- getter; that's her audience appeal. I don't see her in unison with music, I see her conquering it. And that's OK, as well; but it's a different approach.

[Alex Forrest]

This is the interview that you meant. No heart on her sleeve, rather in the palm of her hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsjoojhAcHk

Yeah, sorry, my mistake. Heart in the palm of her hand, rather than on her sleeve.

I really wish I didn't just watch that video, because it was like nails on a chalkboard. Uggh. Could she sound more vacuous and self-absorbed? God, she sounds like Kim Kardashian. A friend could send me that as a cruel joke just to make me squirm.

So in spite of interviews like this one, I appreciate Kwan's contribution to the skating world. She has her place in history, it's well deserved, and I'll remember her great programs. And try to forget her interviews.

[Triple Butz]

Yeah, sorry, my mistake. Heart in the palm of her hand, rather than on her sleeve.

I really wish I didn't just watch that video, because it was like nails on a chalkboard. Uggh. Could she sound more vacuous and self-absorbed? God, she sounds like Kim Kardashian. A friend could send me that as a cruel joke just to make me squirm.

Yeah, having her heart in the palm of her hand and giving it to the audience. What a self-absorbed b*tch.

[AxelAnnie]

Agreed.

Michelle was a legend as a 6.0 skater. We will never know how she could have or would have adapted to COP. I suspect not all that successfully. Her jumps were not high, not spectacular, and she hadn't added difficulty in quite a while. Michelle was gorgeous, and a one of a kind. I am glad we were able to see her do what she did, and when she did it. I think COP would not have been kind to or for her.

Kids like Ashley who can incorporate any kind of artistry these days along with such packed technical content is an amazement.

[aftershocks]

This is the interview that you meant. No heart on her sleeve, rather in the palm of her hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsjoojhAcHk

Awwww, Kweeeen! Brings a tear to my eye, a smile to my heart ... and a tingle up my spine. Thanks, kwanette!

The rest of youse unappreciative "self-absorbed" Kwan critics, eat your hearts out.

[UGG]

Agreed.
-
Michelle was a legend as a 6.0 skater. We will never know how she could have or would have adapted to COP. I suspect not all that successfully. Her jumps were not high, not spectacular, and she hadn't added difficulty in quite a while. Michelle was gorgeous, and a one of a kind. I am glad we were able to see her do what she did, and when she did it. I think COP would not have been kind to or for her.

Kids like Ashley who can incorporate any kind of artistry these days along with such packed technical content is an amazement.

IDK. Perhaps she would not have been able to win as many world championships, but I think she would have been able to be a good COP skater in her prime (1996 to 2001) had she grown up on the system. She scored decent in her only performance under COP with a really bad bland long program in 2005. She for sure would have beat Tara at the1998 Olympics under COP who had even smaller jumps and a huge flutz.

[Triple Butz]

Agreed.

Michelle was a legend as a 6.0 skater.
Kids like Ashley who can incorporate any kind of artistry these days along with such packed technical content is an amazement.

These are good points. It's REALLY hard IMO to construct a CoP-friendly program that fits the music as well as some of the great 6.0 ones did (and, no, I'm not trying to turn this into a go-back-to-6.0 discussion). I was watching COC with an old colleague who is also a professional musician and had not watched skating since the early 2000's. The first thing she said was, "Why is everyone so boring now and no one skates to the music?"

One aspect about Ashley's skating I've really liked the past couple of seasons is that she uses her spins to highlight musical accents. In the LP at TEB, she got a lv3 for her layback and I kept thinking that it would be so much easier for her to get lv4 if she wasn't so concerned with changing positions on the downbeats. Obviously, she can and has achieved both at the same time, but I'm impressed that she goes for it since there isn't really any incentive for her to do so. She would probably score the same for that element if she just shut out the music and counted rotations.

[Coco]

Seeing how Michelle made her jumps get way bigger when COP was implemented, and recognizing that she made those improvements a) at the end of her career and b) with a bad hip, I think she would have done just fine if COP was in place in the 90s.

[NadineWhite]

To answer the question posed in the title of this thread, they are both two totally different skaters and individuals, therefore their artistry is different.

Kwan expressed herself as only she could, it doesn't remind me of anyone else. Same goes for Ashley. Yes, there are times a program reminds me of such & such a skater, but not the way they express themselves on the ice. For instance, even though Ashley has always reminded me of Sasha Cohen in terms of spirit, fight, passion, personality even, that's where it ends. The way they expressed themselves on the ice is totally different. Same goes for body type, just because a skater's body reminds me of another skater doesn't mean said skater skates like that person.

Anyhow, jmho, carry on.

ps: my favorite program of Ashley's is still "Somewhere in Time", second "Black Swan".

[cbd1235]

Seeing how Michelle made her jumps get way bigger when COP was implemented, and recognizing that she made those improvements a) at the end of her career and b) with a bad hip, I think she would have done just fine if COP was in place in the 90s.

I think she would have been fine aswell. Long programs like Taj Mahal would fit right in with the COP programs today although spins and steps would have to change quite a lot. Also it is an under-appreciated fact that she fixed her flutz when COP was implemented. Although her flip became a lip too They didn't care about edge violations on flip until something like 2007-2008.

[Vash01]

Michelle's biggest strength was her heart/mind. She would have done just fine under COP.

[dawnie]

Michelle's biggest strength was her heart/mind. She would have done just fine under COP.

Considering her one and only COP competition score (with arguably her worst LP) is still in the top 30 on the ISU Personal Best list, I would have to agree.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/pbslto.htm

[olympic]

I think the comparisons between Ashley and Michelle are really tough. They competed under different systems and Ashley is unable to 'lose herself' in a performance because she is busy trying to maximize points on every element. I also think that Ashley might appear forced, because she is compelled to pose / vamp it up a bit to stand out in spite of all those elements and their transitions.

[UGG]

Considering her one and only COP competition score (with arguably her worst LP) is still in the top 30 on the ISU Personal Best list, I would have to agree.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/pbslto.htm

I always just cannot understand why people say Michelle would have done bad under COP. Especially during 1996-2001 who would be beating her? Not Tara or Sarah on the national level. Maybe Irina in 2000 and 2001 at worlds. If COP were the scoring system, I really believe Michelle would still be a multiple world and national champion, and I am pretty sure she would be Olympic Champion (1998). Her legacy for sure would be different, but she would still have been successful I think.

[judgejudy27]

I dont think COP would have hurt Tara in Nagano. Her programs would have a higher base value than Michelle or anyones, and she didnt UR any jumps at that competition. Her flutz was even minor compared to todays standards and wouldnt have hurt her much. Also Tara was winning Nationals in 97 with how everyone skated there under any scoring system, that is for sure. Her jumps would get good GOE because of their control, rotation, perfect air positions, and flow out, even if they werent huge, and her skating was well suited to the PCS categories. Tara was no Sarah Hughes with badly URed jumps and triple-triple tries, and a huge mule kicking flutz and mule kicking flip.

1996 Worlds between Kwan and Chen under COP would have been interesting. Kwan wouldnt have even been able to throw in that 7th triple.

[kwanatic]

Michelle's biggest strength was her heart/mind. She would have done just fine under COP.

People try to say she wouldn't have b/c the only evidence of her competing under COP came at the very end of her career. Had she been brought up under COP like all of these skaters today, I know she'd have been fine...

But to be honest, I thank my lucky stars Michelle was not a part of this COP era of skating and I'm glad she left the sport when she did.

[judgejudy27]

People try to say she wouldn't have b/c the only evidence of her competing under COP came at the very end of her career. Had she been brought up under COP like all of these skaters today, I know she'd have been fine...

But to be honest, I thank my lucky stars Michelle was not a part of this COP era of skating and I'm glad she left the sport when she did.

I dont even like COP anyway. I would rather ask which skaters would do well under 6.0s than which would do well under COP. Skaters I can think of who would be much less a factor under 6.0s would be Chan (too many mistakes, too many jarring disruptive falls and stumbles, not enough emotional investment or intangible magic in his performances), Lysacek (nothing remarkable about him, just a points collector), Ando (we already have evidence of this). Kim, Asada, Kostner, the Japanese men, Plushenko, are obviously threads under any system.

[RD]

I think the comparisons between Ashley and Michelle are really tough. They competed under different systems and Ashley is unable to 'lose herself' in a performance because she is busy trying to maximize points on every element. I also think that Ashley might appear forced, because she is compelled to pose / vamp it up a bit to stand out in spite of all those elements and their transitions.

Exactly. I agree