What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

[ambern024]

I personally think that besides music choices there are zero similarities between michelles skating and ashleys.

Michelle had a way of drawing me in and not even thinking about what elements she was doing. it all just flowed and naturally came out of her. michelle made it seem like it was her body and her movements that were making the music and that the music was just flowing out of her. She really made me feel like she was showing us her heart and baring soul. She was just enchanting.

Ashley just doesn't have any of that. Yes she's pretty and has some nice elements but to me her programs just feel like a bunch of skating elements put together. The one program where i think she came the closest to just letting the program flow out of her was her black swan. Thats the only one that ever made me look. She just doesn't have that "it factor" that michelle has. Doesn't mean she isnt good...just she doesn't draw comparison.

And on a tech note though...Michelle had a triple lutz. Ashley has a triple flutz.

I am very pleased with Ashley's new found confidence though! I hope she does really well.

[PeterG]

Hmm, I will be the thinking man/woman's PeterG.

I don't get it.

[spikydurian]

I don't get it.

I don't get it too. Now PeterG has company.

[Vash01]

I think Irina Slutskaya had very good presentation but not very good "artistry" per say which is why I am glad the mark was changed to presentation as it accomodates a greater variety of skating styles and strengths. JMO

ITA. It also helped Tara Lipinski win the 1998 Olympics. Her presentation was great. Had it been 'artistic marks' as in the past, Michelle would have won.

[centerstage01]

Sorry Centerstage that you somehow think there is so much hate bottled up in me. Your loss, girlfriend.

From what I've been reading in this and other threads, I don't think so.

As Ray Charles would say "You don't know me". Or maybe you are too young to know who Ray Charles is. Google it then.

Dude, I'm 36 years old. I know who Ray Charles is and I know the song to which you refer. But good job on trying to be condescending with that "zinger". I have been put in my place.

[Alex Forrest]

I don't get it.

Yeah, sorry, I don't get it either. It sounds like a dig, but it was supposed to be a dig at me. Like how some obscure actress with no following is called "The thinking man's Julia Roberts". I never thought about it being insulting, sorry about that.

[UGG]

Hmm, I will be the thinking man/woman's PeterG. Do I think Michelle Kwan had such more innate musicality or "artistry" than Ashley Wagner. Well, no. Michelle was very studied in her competitive career. She had a great team. I get so annoyed when posters say "Kwan skated with HEART". So what? You know what I think Kwan's appeal was? We saw her as a tiny gangly pre-teen jumper who through hard work and discipline created GREAT programs. Was she 'more artistic'? Hell no. She was trained well. I respect that. I could watch her all the way up to Nagano. Her programs were complex and interesting and not just Slutskaya Chorus Line crap. What I object to is this *myth* of a Kwan as artist. The last several years of the end of her career her programs were identical, there was nothing artistic. When her fanwhores claim how much she skated from 'the heart' is really to me how her fans reacted to her skating from 'their heart'. She wasn't doing anything but being Michelle Kwan, and I'm sorry, a "SMIRAL" does not a Bolero masterpiece make.

This whole crap about Kwan being such an artiste is sickening IMO. It was her fans who fell in love with the girl/woman she is, and she has proven herself to be a wonderful person in society. But to watch her barebones by number Bolero, Rodriguo et al and say she was 'such an artist' is such BS. She landed triple jumps consistently and won an insane amount of titles due to her triple jumps. To say Kwan 'skates from the heart' while dissing Wagner is craziness. I was impressed with Kwan's Salome, Majal, and Angelica. The rest, not so much. I was impressed with Wagner's Swan and this year Delilah, both are skaters who are hungry to win and acquired teams to get them to that point.

I never saw Kwan as an 'artiste'. She had too many limitations. Her fans saw her skating from THEIR hearts. Kwan really didn't put anything down after maybe 2001 to classify her as an artiste. Big difference.

PeterG, I match your 100, and raise you 500.

i don't really think any of her fans rank Bolero up there with Salome, Taj, Lyra, TRV etc...and if they do, they shouldn't. Michelle was at her prime during 1996-2001 and obviously, as is life, she could not maintain that level of skating forever due to getting older, her hip injury etc... Should you really hold it against her that at 24 she could no longer skate at the level she was skating at 16?

As for skate with heart...Tosca is a very bare bones program. But she skated it beautifully at Nationals. She was very intense during the entire program which I thought fit the music and then after her last triple you can see her passion for skating. Looks like skating with heart to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzcUI...e=results_main

[Alex Forrest]

As for skate with heart...Tosca is a very bare bones program. But she skated it beautifully at Nationals. She was very intense during the entire program which I thought fit the music and then after her last triple you can see her passion for skating. Looks like skating with heart to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzcUI...e=results_main

I was not trying to dispute "skating with heart", which I acknowledge Michelle did. But I was disputing whether that seems to make her more of an artiste. Exactly what do they mean by skating with heart? Tara Lipinski would go on the ice and there was not one thought or feeling she had out there that the audience could not recognize and identify, so she of all people skated with heart the most IMO. I'd never consider Tara an artiste though based on that. In fact I was so disappointed in her growth as a skater/performer over her career. Unrealized positions, never developing a strong body line, etc.

I appreciate Kwan's skating. She was competitive for forever, and she deserved to become a national treasure. Her 98 Nationals programs are probably two of the best programs I've ever witnessed. But around 99/00 she started losing me with all her talk about wearing her heart on her sleeve, and being an artiste where the ice is her canvas, then we see a clip of her doing her smiral or a straighline step sequence with a very dramatic facial expression. Then of course age and injuries set in and all her programs looked alike, which is natural and expected. When I think artiste, I think Curry, Cranston, Lynn and I'm hard-pressed to name a skater in recent memory. Maybe Daisuke Takahashi. Kwan, like Ashley now, was a very well packaged skater, and found her dream team to maximize her talent. I didn't quite get the comparison between the two earlier, but after watching Ashley's SP this year, with her in betweens such as the falling leaf in the middle of her program I am now seeing a comparison in their presentation and packaging.

It's all good, and we can only hope that all skaters realize their potential. I'm extremely happy with Wagner's progress this year, she's almost like a different skater from two years ago. Christina Gao is another one who has impressed me. Now if only Agnes would get her act together...

[Alex Forrest]

sorry, double post

[kwanette]

Dick Button used the "heart on her sleeve" expression at 04 Nationals near the end of her "Tosca" performance. Michelle didn't.

http://www.youtube.com/results?utm_s...+michelle+kwan

[judgejudy27]

Dick was definitely the biggest Kwantard I can think of (not that there is anything wrong with that of course). It might also explain why he was such an Irina hater, he sensed she was her biggest threat, although he probably also genuinely didnt like her skating as it seems many people dont. Slutskaya seems to be a skater who is the opposite of Trenary though, people seem to recall her more favorably with the passing of time than they did while she competed. I still remember in the early to mid 2000s when she was competing and often the skater to beat, and many threads here were closed due to the out of control anti Slutskaya trolling. It will be interesting to see as more time goes on how time will treat Michelle Kwan. So far it seems pretty well, although there are a few more people who seem to follow the impression she held the technical standard back (IMO a false myth) than years earlier.

[kwanette]

I merely brought up Dick Button to correct the previous poster's "mis-fact".

[kwanatic]

In terms of artistry, musicality, connecting with the choreography and music...all of those things that are tough to teach...Michelle had it from square one. Even as a tiny jumping bean there was something about her that made people take notice. She always had that it factor. In 1995, pre-Salome, you could still see Michelle's fluidity, connection to the music and audience; unfortunately, at 14 years old she was packaged like a 14 year old so those qualities weren't as apparent at the time. That next season they upped the ante by getting rid of the ponytail and puffy armed dresses. That natural grace and ability to interpret music and convey a feeling or emotion were always there...they just had to highlight it and bring it to the front. Just watch her LP from 1995 worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM

The choreography and presentation weren't nearly as sophisticated and mature, but you can see those innate qualities she later became renown for...including her appeal. She won over the crowd, received a standing ovation and had the commentators singing her praises as well.

As for Ashley, I'm glad that she's been studying Michelle. No, I don't think she has that magical ability to draw people in but she's developing her own kind of magic. I love Ashley's fierceness and attack. You can see her confidence we she steps out onto the ice and I admire that. I do think she's doing a good job in channeling Michelle's ability to take command of the ice. She's developed a wonderful presence on the ice. As far as style, Michelle and Ashley are two different skaters. Michelle was more about grace, finesse and quiet power; Ashley is very powerful and attacks more, which works for her. I'm happy the US has a legitimate contender again. It's been a long time...

[Alex Forrest]

I merely brought up Dick Button to correct the previous poster's "mis-fact".

I specifically remember an interview with Kwan when she waxed poetically and explained that she put her heart on her sleeve or was giving her heart to the audience. It wasn't a 'mis-fact'. Just because Dick Button said it does not negate that Kwan also did. IIRC it was probably at 99 Nationals and she was wearing a fuzzy bluish sweater.

[Marco]

Actually, Kwan had excellent pacing and her skating was always in tune with the tempo and progression of the music / program. I wonder how much of this is due to Nichol. Kostner also has excellent pacing now - her speed is much mroe controlled and she is taking her time to present herself.

Wagner on the other hand looks a little hectic to me, and her timing isn't always as spot on.

[cbd1235]

i don't really think any of her fans rank Bolero up there with Salome, Taj, Lyra, TRV etc...and if they do, they shouldn't. Michelle was at her prime during 1996-2001 and obviously, as is life, she could not maintain that level of skating forever due to getting older, her hip injury etc... Should you really hold it against her that at 24 she could no longer skate at the level she was skating at 16?

As for skate with heart...Tosca is a very bare bones program. But she skated it beautifully at Nationals. She was very intense during the entire program which I thought fit the music and then after her last triple you can see her passion for skating. Looks like skating with heart to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzcUI...e=results_main

You've got that right! I'm a huge Kwan fan and I'm more than willing to admit that Bolero was a shit program (sorry if I offend anyone!). And yes I would call 2004 nats FS the definition of "Heart on Your Sleeve". That audience got the show of their lives that night!

[Triple Butz]

This is sort of a weird thread. I see a few similarities, most notably confidence and projection. When watching Ashley's FS at TEB I was thrilled to see that at almost all times she was looking up, out to the audience, and kept her posture. She was wedged in between Tuktamysheva and Lipnitskaya in the skate order who both tend to look down a lot and shrug their shoulders between elements.

I don't think her style of skating is similar to Kwan's overall, but I do think that Ashely has tapped into the kind of confidence we saw with skaters like Kwan, who are so sure of themselves that they aren't afraid to look right up at the audience before and after a difficult element. The only thing lacking in Wagner's skating right now (and it improves every day) are those deep silky edges, which were Kwan's biggest strength.

[aftershocks]

Dick was definitely the biggest Kwantard I can think of (not that there is anything wrong with that of course). It might also explain why he was such an Irina hater, ...

Dick Button, an Irina hater?! Hmmm, I guess that's why he felt "entitled" enough to ask her if he could pinch her rosy cheeks (or words to that effect). So if he didn't like Irina's skating, which I think is a false perception, he sure as h**l thought she had a cute smile and lovely, pinchable cheeks.

Weird thread, indeed, but many are.

[RD]

I don't think her style of skating is similar to Kwan's overall, but I do think that Ashely [sic] has tapped into the kind of confidence we saw with skaters like Kwan, who are so sure of themselves that they aren't afraid to look right up at the audience before and after a difficult element.

I think there's something in this statement. I was watching a couple of old MK vids from Nationals and you can tell that she just owned the audience. In terms of really selling a program (when she wanted to) MK was really in a league of her own. Wagner wouldn't even be on the same planet. However, I do see the same sort of self-confidence from both, particularly with the jumps. It's basically saying "I got this."

I watched a couple of Cohen vids as well (from the same nationals) and if Wagner really wants to reach that level presentation-wise she's got a looooong way to go. But honestly, there's little use in comparing her to these skaters. She's definitely capable of making her own mark...and maybe future US stars will end up being compared to Wagner, who knows?

[kwanette]

I specifically remember an interview with Kwan when she waxed poetically and explained that she put her heart on her sleeve or was giving her heart to the audience. It wasn't a 'mis-fact'. Just because Dick Button said it does not negate that Kwan also did. IIRC it was probably at 99 Nationals and she was wearing a fuzzy bluish sweater.

Or...