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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I never compared their styles. It was just you. I was comparing their skating qualities and their competitive edge.

    I also disagree that they excel in their skating (or any aspect of their skating).

    Anyone who cared to pay attention to my posts at all would know I have always been a huge Wagner supporter. But that doesn't mean I am not realistic as to what else she could improve on if she wants to contend for gold with the very best. And comparing her to Lysacek is in no way putting her down. Making that inference reflects more on your view than on mine.
    The way you said "very Lysacek," sounded like a "put down." Of course, it could be taken as a compliment too, but not in the context of your comments. However, pardon me if I misinterpreted your intent. Still, since you feel that Lysacek and Ashley "don't excel in any aspect of their skating," you obviously don't hold a high opinion of their skating.

    Yes, all skaters have aspects of their skating that they can improve upon. Of course Ashley is not an exception. Her fans are aware of that fact. What her fans are cheering about is that she's come a long way, even though she's still working on improving. In your original post comparing Ashley to Lysacek, you did say you "love Ashley," but you also said you don't perceive a "Champion quality" in her skating, and you feel other skaters are "better." Those are subjective opinions/ viewpoints. I differ with you as I think that Ashley has improved to the point where she is very competitive with other top skaters. She's not only proving her competitiveness, but with her recent consistency, she is also beginning to build positive rep with the judges.

    Since Ashley is already a champion skater, did you mean to say that you don't see "World or Olympic Champion quality" in her skating? If so, maybe Ashley will be able to turn that notion on its head too. I will definitely be rooting for her to do so.

    Skating is so subjective that differences in perceptions and viewpoints are to be expected. It's great to see Ashley proving her mettle and changing at least some fans' ways of looking at her. No matter what she accomplishes, Ashley will probably be unlikely to change everyone's views of her, but that's not really her goal anyway.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Cohen was rarely clean but even when she made mistakes she would almost always place well.
    Not 'almost' always. Cohen placed 4th at the 2003 Worlds, but at every competition after that through 2006 Worlds she podiumed. Before 2003 Worlds her lowest international placement ever was 6th at Junior Worlds in 2000, and that is the only time she ever placed 6th. She was top 5 at every competition of her entire senior career.

  3. #23
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    Ashley is the topic of Brian Cazeneuve's 11/22 Sports Illustrated "Inside Olympic Sports" column: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ner/index.html
    (Thanks to michiruwater for posting the link!)
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lulu View Post
    Well it's certainly working for her.
    I wish Ashley would tell us what Nicks did that made her jumps more consistent, but I guess that would help her competitors...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I wish Ashley would tell us what Nicks did that made her jumps more consistent, but I guess that would help her competitors...
    I'd argue that she was a strong freeskater even before she went to Nicks- she was already good at staying on her feet, but she needed someone to clean up the jumps (2-footing, UR, etc.)

    It's the short program that took her out of contention almost every time, and even at worlds last year she had issues. It is CRITICAL to nail that short program because if we've learned anything, things haven't changed much from the 6.0 days- judges seem more willing to overlook errors in the FS than they are in the SP.

  6. #26
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    The only thing specific I've heard from her is that Nicks forced her to "hang on" to her jumps in practices and not fall. The SP problem I'm not sure about - that seems a confidence issue, so something has definitely built up her confidence.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    Not 'almost' always. Cohen placed 4th at the 2003 Worlds, but at every competition after that through 2006 Worlds she podiumed. Before 2003 Worlds her lowest international placement ever was 6th at Junior Worlds in 2000, and that is the only time she ever placed 6th. She was top 5 at every competition of her entire senior career.
    Crazy to think how back then some of those silvers seemed like such a disappointment sorry, Sasha : . She really had an amazing career.

  8. #28
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    Another new article on/interview with Wagner: http://www.icenetwork.com/news/artic...&vkey=ice_news

    ETA link to a related article on her involvement with the "Classroom Champions" program and her recent visit to Staten Island's PS 861 School of Civic Leadership: http://www.teamusa.org/News/2012/Nov...Classroom.aspx
    Last edited by Sylvia; 11-26-2012 at 09:39 PM.
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkats View Post
    Crazy to think how back then some of those silvers seemed like such a disappointment sorry, Sasha : . She really had an amazing career.
    ^^ Well, the expectations were so high, not only because of Sasha's talent, but because Michelle was so consistent winning gold most of the time, and occasionally silver but never off the podium until what became her last Worlds, the fluke 2005 Worlds (where IMO the judges kinda pushed MKwan off into 4th place).

    MK won 9 U.S. gold and 3 silver; she won 5 World gold, 3 silver, and one bronze; in addition she won 7 Skate America gold, and one silver; 3 Skate Canada gold, 2 silver, and one bronze; 1 GPF gold and 4 silver, plus a Junior World gold, and a variety of medals (including golds, silvers and a bronze) at sundry other international comps: TEB, Goodwill Games, Nations Cup, and Gardena Trophy. Pretty amazing treasure chest. I wonder where she keeps them all! I'm sure the tally would be even higher had Ms. Kwan competed more often on the GP circuit -- she apparently never competed at CoR, CoC (surprisingly) or NHK.

    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I wish Ashley would tell us what Nicks did that made her jumps more consistent, but I guess that would help her competitors...
    Why do you need to know all the nitty-gritty details? I think Ashley and Mr. Nicks have both been pretty specific that he helped guide her to improve her mental preparation, her approach to training in general, and he helped adjust her technique on some jumps "a bit" (as Ashley phrased it). Ashley also gives Philip Mills a great deal of credit for his contributions as assistant coach, choreographer, mentor and friend. I also believe that Mills helped design Ashley's Pollock sp costume.

    Isn't it fairly apparent that Ashley has increased her physical training and she seems to have a greater belief in herself, as well as confidence in the knowledge that she is very prepared. Nicks obviously helped her channel all of her energies and desires in the right direction to the point where she seems calm and radiant when she takes the ice. I also believe the way her programs are structured, along with proper breathing, and overall packaging with music that enhances her style and flattering costumes helps add to Ashley's confidence. In the linked hometown article, I was surprised to learn that Ashley had experienced problems with her neck vertebrae prior to making the move to California. It must have been a relief for her to discover that physical problem and have it resolved, which probably also led to her making the ultimately beneficial overall assessment of her skating career.

    In any case, in terms of Mr. Nicks' specific guidance, what works for Ashley is not necessarily going to help her competitors or be what any of them require. I would imagine there aren't too many, if any, proprietary secrets in figure skating. After all, fs ain't baseball, basketball, or tennis. When a figure skater is on the field of play (on center ice), they are there alone with "all eyes on them," and it's up to each individual skater to do their thing in front of the audience and the judges -- no opponent is blocking and no coach is making hand signals (the hours of practice and training have to kick in and be enough in those moments).

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    I think Wagner can definitely medal at Worlds and Olympics, but if she wins either we are forever going to hear a lot of moaning about Wagner winning despite not being the best skater and winning only because she was hard working and others fecked up, like when Lysacek won.
    Huh? That is kind of an odd leap. Ashley is skating gorgeously. Her artistry is becoming spectacular. If she wins either Worlds or OLYS it will be because she was the best skater that night..............I don't really see the complaint. I don't see anyone who is doing a better job of skating right now that Ashley. Who do you consider a "better" skater? Just curious.
    DH - and that's just my opinion

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Why do you need to know all the nitty-gritty details?
    For my own personal curiosity. You say this as if I'm trying to bad-mouth Ashley.

    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Huh? That is kind of an odd leap. Ashley is skating gorgeously. Her artistry is becoming spectacular. If she wins either Worlds or OLYS it will be because she was the best skater that night..............I don't really see the complaint. I don't see anyone who is doing a better job of skating right now that Ashley. Who do you consider a "better" skater? Just curious.
    The people who say this are using Ashley as a place-holder until Gracie and the Russians fulfill all of their expectations. It hasn't happened this season so give Ashley her due. She will never be MK or Yuna but that doesn't mean she is not deserving of all awards this far. Ashley is a pretty darn good skater. I guess just not some people's favorite.

  12. #32
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    ^^ Personal curiosity aside, I don't think either Ashley or Mr. Nicks need to spell it all out publicly unless they are going to be giving a show-and-tell at Champs Camp (which is usually not open to fans).

    In no way do I think you are "trying to bad-mouth" Ashley. And I'm just stating how I feel, which doesn't negate your perceptions and feelings.

  13. #33
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    Ok. I like to learn about people's technique. That's all.

  14. #34
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    Well, maybe one day you will have the chance to meet Ashley in person, and ask her yourself. Or, else you could send a question in on her FSO site.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelAnnie View Post
    Huh? That is kind of an odd leap. Ashley is skating gorgeously. Her artistry is becoming spectacular. If she wins either Worlds or OLYS it will be because she was the best skater that night..............I don't really see the complaint. I don't see anyone who is doing a better job of skating right now that Ashley. Who do you consider a "better" skater? Just curious.
    Kostner and Asada (and arguably Korpi) are better skaters. If Wagner wins, she will deserve it but it will most likely be due to mistakes by these other girls. There is something sour about winning just because she is the only one who put it all together. She totally has it in her to win on merits against the great skaters too, but she needs to further step it up. I mean, a win is still a win, but even ten years after the fact, I can only accept Sarah Hughes as "OGM only because Kwan fell", and I still feel sour that Lambiel or Takahashi didn't win Vancouver and the top two there were only sub-par skaters.

    I want to see longer strokes and more edge work from Wagner. I want to see her exhibit better flow. I want to see faster spins. I want to see footwork that uses the whole body and more of the blade instead of over focusing on the arms. I want to see genuine excitment and joy. If all these happen, I will be even happier for her win.
    Last edited by Marco; 11-27-2012 at 03:59 AM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Kostner and Asada (and arguably Korpi) are better skaters. If Wagner wins, she will deserve it but it will most likely be due to mistakes by these other girls. There is something sour about winning just because she is the only one who put it all together. She totally has it in her to win on merits against the great skaters too, but she needs to further step it up. I mean, a win is still a win, but even ten years after the fact, I can only accept Sarah Hughes as "OGM only because Kwan fell", and I still feel sour that Lambiel or Takahashi didn't win Vancouver and the top two there were only sub-par skaters.

    I want to see longer strokes and more edge work from Wagner. I want to see her exhibit better flow. I want to see faster spins. I want to see footwork that uses the whole body and more of the blade instead of over focusing on the arms. I want to see genuine excitment and joy. If all these happen, I will be even happier for her win.
    Kostner and Asada are naturally better skaters but both have shown vulmnerability in competition.

    I agree with what you're saying but I would certainly not add Korpi in there . I like her a lot but she isn't at their level of overall skating. Nice triple-triple (toe toe) and triple loop but technical problems with all other triples (sal is meh much like Ashley's but Ashley makes it work a lot better in the event). Korpi has better spins but awful choreo imo and her skating skills aren't the same as Ashley's for me. They have comparable edge quality I'd say.

    Everything subjective aside, Korpi's jump technique holds her back from that level. Korpi will never win a world title, whereas Ashley has the ability to if she's clean and others falter.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Kostner and Asada (and arguably Korpi) are better skaters. If Wagner wins, she will deserve it but it will most likely be due to mistakes by these other girls. There is something sour about winning just because she is the only one who put it all together. She totally has it in her to win on merits against the great skaters too, but she needs to further step it up. I mean, a win is still a win, but even ten years after the fact, I can only accept Sarah Hughes as "OGM only because Kwan fell", and I still feel sour that Lambiel or Takahashi didn't win Vancouver and the top two there were only sub-par skaters.

    I want to see longer strokes and more edge work from Wagner. I want to see her exhibit better flow. I want to see faster spins. I want to see footwork that uses the whole body and more of the blade instead of over focusing on the arms. I want to see genuine excitment and joy. If all these happen, I will be even happier for her win.
    Okay, you make some excellent points. However, I don't think you are "entitled" to assume that Ashley is not exhibiting "genuine excitement and joy." If that's your perception, fine. But you're swimming in murky waters without goggles or an airtube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    Kostner and Asada are naturally better skaters but both have shown vulmnerability in competition.
    Which is why I said Wagner could only win when they make mistakes.

    I agree with what you're saying but I would certainly not add Korpi in there . I like her a lot but she isn't at their level of overall skating. Nice triple-triple (toe toe) and triple loop but technical problems with all other triples (sal is meh much like Ashley's but Ashley makes it work a lot better in the event). Korpi has better spins but awful choreo imo and her skating skills aren't the same as Ashley's for me. They have comparable edge quality I'd say.

    Everything subjective aside, Korpi's jump technique holds her back from that level. Korpi will never win a world title, whereas Ashley has the ability to if she's clean and others falter.
    Korpi has a lightness in her movement across the ice and a softness in her bodily movements that Wagner doesn't have. She has beautiful arms. I don't think she is as good as Kostner or Asada but I do find her comparable or slightly better than Wagner as a skater. Again, Korpi doesn't win more because of her jumps, not because she isn't a good skater. If both she and Wagner land comparable jumps, Korpi might not lose.

  19. #39
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    ^^ Korpi is a vision of beauty on the ice (even despite her bow legs). Korpi's style of skating is different from Ashley's. I enjoy watching them both. I feel though that Korpi is right now not as consistent on her jumps as Ashley is with her new found mental approach and confidence.

  20. #40
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    The problem with Kiira is her jump technique is really flawed. Before her win in Russia, I can't remember the last time she landed both a 3Lz and 3F. Her 3F entry, which she keeps changing, is especially scary.

    She is a gorgeous girl and improved many other areas of her skating, but I agree that she lacks the technical consistency to ever win a major title. She has good speed, but I actually find her upper body quite rigid.

    Ashley still has jump issues, but not as severe.

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