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  1. #1
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    Chanflation vs Tenflation

    Definitions:

    Chanflation: inflated overall PCS scores resulted from judging by reputation/expectation (e.g., judging by previous results, by assumption of how other judges will do, by preconceived notion based on observations on a skater's ability throughout the entire week including practices and the Short Program). "I think today is just proof of figure skating is about an overall good week and I had a really good week." (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskati...rick-chan.html).

    Tenflation: inflated overall PCS scores resulted from ordinal judging (i.e., giving scores in an attempt to match holistic assessment of a skater's placement relative to others). The sudden huge boost in most, if not all, PCS categories does not necessarily entail actual improvement in all skill categories; instead, it reflects the judges' inclination to place the skater on an ordinal scale. The boost has a ceiling nonetheless. If it is widely accepted that A has better skating skills than B, most judges dare not or would hesitate to reverse the order. All they can do is minimizing the gap in their scores. "But I guarantee you, had Ten skated before names like Takahashi, Fernandez, and Hanyu, his short program score would have been a good three or four points lower." (http://www.examiner.com/article/opin...ram-components).

    Both types of inflation seem inevitable under the current judging system. What do you think?
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 03-17-2013 at 01:00 PM.

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    My interpretation is that PCS should be independent of technical content. If you have low technical content but skate well you should have high PCS and low technical scores. If you skate poorly but manage to get credit for completing your elements you should have a low PCS and a high technical score. If your technical content is high and you skate well both scores should be high. There should be a reward for doing more difficult content but also a risk.

  3. #3

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    I think this thread is mean spirited towards Ten for doing his best, and morally wrong.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 03-17-2013 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    "I think today is just proof of figure skating is about an overall good week and I had a really good week." (http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskati...rick-chan.html).
    This quote by Chan really rub me the wrong way. If judges really judge that way then skaters like Czisny should've been on the podium a long time ago, because I often read reports about how she usually hits everything during practices. But maybe this "rule" only apply to certain skaters.

    Figure skating only begrudgingly changed its judging system after a public outcry from the SLC Olympic. Maybe it'll take another controversy in Sochi for the ISU to make additional changes to IJS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I think this thread is mean spirited towards Ten for doing his best, and morally wrong.
    People get worked up so easily. I think Chanflation is wrong because the judges should evaluate only the performance they are judging. Tenflation, on the other hand, has its virtue. It reflects something more than its parts, something that the judges appreciate, something with a soul that the judges are forced to severe into limbs and torso (or what they call "components"). It looks like an inflation if we examine each part separately, but as a whole it reflects the judges' holistic assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    This quote by Chan really rub me the wrong way. If judges really judge that way then skaters like Czisny should've been on the podium a long time ago, because I often read reports about how she usually hits everything during practices. But maybe this "rule" only apply to certain skaters.
    What does Chan mean by having a really good week?

    Does he mean that judges were extra generous to him in competition scores because he was skating even better in practice, and generous to him in the long program scores in particular because he had skated well in the short?

    If that's what he means, then I agree with you, it's wrong. Judges are supposed to judge just what happens on the competition ice.

    Or does he mean that the judges rewarded him for what he did well during the competition, which was pretty much everything in the short program, and everything except for two jumps and whatever else he may have felt was below his own best (though for many of those qualities still above everyone else's best, or at least above Ten's), and all those deservedly earned points added up to enough for gold?

    If he means the latter, that over the course of ~7 minutes worth of competition performance this week the judges thought Chan was the best for more than 6 1/2 minutes worth, then I do think they're doing their job correctly.

    That is a rather awkward comment to make about oneself, but probably the reporters put him on the spot to justify whether he thought his win was deserved so he had to respond in some way.

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    I think a really good week is a combination of a number of things.

    1) he was staying in a city that he likes and has competed in before; he said he feels comfortable there
    2) his practices went reasonably well
    3) his short went exactly the way he planned -- pretty much
    4) the long wasn't quite the way he wanted; he did two quads, one in combination, had a couple mistakes
    5) felt like he connected to the music and that it showed in his performance
    Put all that together and yeah, it was a successful week. Now I wouldn't put it past the reporters to be trying to bait him with such a question in hopes that he'd give them something which to make a "story". Chan is still somewhat open with his opinions and answers but I think he's trying to get better at it. Perhaps with time, he'll start coming out with those trite and tried phrases. Lord, I hope not.
    Crazy about sports!

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    If we review the average PCS for SP/LP:

    Chan: 9.13 / 8.93
    Ten: 8.15 / 8.72
    Fernandez: 8.11 / 8.53
    Hanyu: 8.16 / 8.00
    Reynolds: 7.49 / 7.78
    Takahashi: 8.63 / 8.50
    Aaron: 6.93 / 7.43
    Mura: 7.46 / 7.62
    Joubert: 7.99 / 8.23
    Brezina: 7.83 / 7.77

    were these component scores correct

    a) in relationship to the performances of the other competitors in each segment?
    b) in relationship to the performance of the skater himself between the two segments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    If we review the average PCS for SP/LP:

    Chan: 9.13 / 8.93
    Ten: 8.15 / 8.72
    Fernandez: 8.11 / 8.53
    Hanyu: 8.16 / 8.00
    Reynolds: 7.49 / 7.78
    Takahashi: 8.63 / 8.50
    Aaron: 6.93 / 7.43
    Mura: 7.46 / 7.62
    Joubert: 7.99 / 8.23
    Brezina: 7.83 / 7.77

    were these component scores correct

    a) in relationship to the performances of the other competitors in each segment?
    b) in relationship to the performance of the skater himself between the two segments?
    Chan's PCS didn't drop enough, even though his free skate was much harder choreographically.

    Ten's PCS was a tad too high in the free and esepcially in comparison to Chan and Takahashi.

    Reynolds' PCS was way too high especially in comparison to Hanyu. Aaron and Brezina should be on roughly the same level, so should Mura and Joubert. Joubert's PCS are probably the most ridiculous.

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    I think Chanflation is wrong because the judges should evaluate only the performance they are judging.
    The problem is in the way the ISU defines the different PCS. Too much of them is measuring things about the skater and program that remain true whether the skater lands his jumps, doubles them, or falls on them. That's why they tend to remain about the same even when a skater has multiple falls. I don't like it, but I don't think it is fair to blame the skater or to blame the judges for marking the way the rule book tells them.

    For those who want to talk PCS marks, we maybe should start by looking at what the judges are supposed to be marking:

    "1. Skating Skills - Over all skating quality: Edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrating a command of edges, steps, turns, etc. displaying a clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate plus demonstrating a variation of speed. Includes:

    Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision foot placement

    Flow and effortless glide: Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean to create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in effortless power and acceleration

    Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, steps and turns that do not impede power/flow.

    Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration: Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle

    Multi directional skating: Includes skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise, including rotation in both directions with equal/balance skill performance.

    Mastery of one foot skating: Minimum use of gliding/skating on two feet.

    "2. Transitions/ Linking Footwork and Movement - The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, and movements that link all elements. In singles, pairs, and synchronized skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements. Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the music and with a minimal use of crossovers. Includes: Variety, Difficulty, Intricacy, Quality

    "3. Performance/Execution - Performance is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. Includes:

    Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement: In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.

    Carriage: A trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.

    Style and individuality/personality: Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

    Clarity of movement: Is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement.

    Variety and contrast: Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body parts as well as the use of contrast

    Projection: The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.

    "4. Choreography/Composition - An intentional, developed, and/or original arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing. Includes:

    Purpose - (Idea, concept, vision, mood): To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

    Proportion (equal weight of all parts): Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

    Unity - Purposeful threading of all movements: A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition.

    Pattern and Ice Coverage: Movement phrases are designed using an interesting and meaningful variety of patterns and directions of travel.

    Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music): A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds to a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase. Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design.

    Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design: An individual perspective of movement and design in pursuit of a creative composition as inspired by the music and the underlying vision.

    Utilization of Personal and Public Space: Movement phrases are distributed in such a way they communicate from every angle in a 360 degree skater-viewer relationship.

    "5. Interpretation - The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice. To reward the skater who through movement creates a personal and creative translation of the music. As the tempo binds all notes in time, the ability to use the tempos and rhythms of the music in a variety of ways, along with the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of all the fundamentals of music: melody, rhythm, harmony, color, texture, and form creates a mastery of interpretation. Includes:

    Effortless Movements in Time to the Music (Timing): The ability to translate music through sureness of rhythm, tempo, effective movement, and effortless flow over the ice surface by: rhythmic continuity, awareness of all tempo/rhythm changes in a variety of ways.

    Expression of the music's style, character, and rhythm: Maintaining the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music: melody, harmony, rhythm, color, texture, and form. The total involvement of the body should express the intent of the music.

    Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music: The skater's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal, artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or the musician."

    (Congrats to anyone who waded thru all of that.)

    With these writeups, it shouldn't be surprising that a given program gets a similar same mark each time out, regardless how the jumping goes.

    I think when a program has falls as disruptive as in Chan's latest FS, there should be a hit especially on Interpretation and Performance Execution, but it the rule doesn't necessarily even call for that.

    I think the ISU really needs to go back to the drawing board on how to handle PCS.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seerek View Post
    If we review the average PCS for SP/LP:
    Chan: 9.13 / 8.93
    Ten: 8.15 / 8.72
    That's what I called "Tenflation" to the ceiling. I actually enjoyed Ten's SP more than his LP. I failed to see a dramatic improvement in his artistry/presentation/skating skills between the two events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I think this thread is mean spirited towards Ten for doing his best, and morally wrong.
    Morally wrong? Really?

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    It seemed to me that the judges wanted Ten to win the competition, and I would not be surprised that the majority of them believed Ten should have won if we interview every one of them. The problem seems to be more about the judging system than about the judges. How can a skater be the "judges pet" for so long no matter which country he competes and no matter which judges are on the panel?
    Chan's disruptive error on his 3S costs him only -1.30 points, but to the eyes of viewers it is more than that--It has an escalating effect (one fall after another and now another significant visible error that took the life out of his program). Chanflation is innate in the scoring system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    The problem is in the way the ISU defines the different PCS... I don't think it is fair to blame the skater or to blame the judges for marking the way the rule book tells them.
    Agreed.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 03-18-2013 at 11:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post

    Or does he mean that the judges rewarded him for what he did well during the competition, which was pretty much everything in the short program, and everything except for two jumps and whatever else he may have felt was below his own best (though for many of those qualities still above everyone else's best, or at least above Ten's), and all those deservedly earned points added up to enough for gold?

    If he means the latter, that over the course of ~7 minutes worth of competition performance this week the judges thought Chan was the best for more than 6 1/2 minutes worth, then I do think they're doing their job correctly.
    Let's not downplay the mistakes Chan made.
    Would it be correct if I said that he actually landed two quads and three triples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    This quote by Chan really rub me the wrong way.
    Perhaps he meant he had a big enough lead after the short program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theshrew View Post
    Let's not downplay the mistakes Chan made.
    Would it be correct if I said that he actually landed two quads and three triples?
    Cleanly, yes. He also got partial credit for a bunch of other stuff and full credit for some doubles and non jump elements.

    It would also be correct to mention he only placed 6th on TES on the night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    The problem is in the way the ISU defines the different PCS. Too much of them is measuring things about the skater and program that remain true whether the skater lands his jumps, doubles them, or falls on them. That's why they tend to remain about the same even when a skater has multiple falls. I don't like it, but I don't think it is fair to blame the skater or to blame the judges for marking the way the rule book tells them.

    For those who want to talk PCS marks, we maybe should start by looking at what the judges are supposed to be marking:

    "1. Skating Skills - Over all skating quality: Edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrating a command of edges, steps, turns, etc. displaying a clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate plus demonstrating a variation of speed. Includes:

    Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision foot placement

    Flow and effortless glide: Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean to create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in effortless power and acceleration

    Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, steps and turns that do not impede power/flow.

    Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration: Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle

    Multi directional skating: Includes skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise, including rotation in both directions with equal/balance skill performance.

    Mastery of one foot skating: Minimum use of gliding/skating on two feet.

    "2. Transitions/ Linking Footwork and Movement - The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, and movements that link all elements. In singles, pairs, and synchronized skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements. Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the music and with a minimal use of crossovers. Includes: Variety, Difficulty, Intricacy, Quality

    "3. Performance/Execution - Performance is the involvement of the skater/couple/teams physically, emotionally, and intellectually as they translate the intent of the music and choreography. Execution is the quality of movement and precision in delivery. Includes:

    Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement: In all skating disciplines each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement.

    Carriage: A trained inner strength of the body that makes possible ease of movement from the center of the body. Alignment is the fluid change from one movement to the next.

    Style and individuality/personality: Style is the distinctive use of line and movement as inspired by the music. Individuality/personality is a combination of personal and artistic preferences that a skater/pair/couple brings to the concept, manner, and content of the program.

    Clarity of movement: Is characterized by the refined lines of the body and limbs, as well as the precise execution of any movement.

    Variety and contrast: Varied use of tempo, rhythm, force, size, level, movement shapes, angles, and, body parts as well as the use of contrast

    Projection: The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience.

    "4. Choreography/Composition - An intentional, developed, and/or original arrangement of all movements according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern, structure, and phrasing. Includes:

    Purpose - (Idea, concept, vision, mood): To reward the intentional and quality design of a program.

    Proportion (equal weight of all parts): Each part and section has equal weight in achieving the aesthetic pursuit of the composition.

    Unity - Purposeful threading of all movements: A program achieves unity when: every step, movement, and element is motivated by the music. As well, all its parts, big or small, seem necessary to the whole, and there is an underlying vision or symbolic meaning that threads together the entire composition.

    Pattern and Ice Coverage: Movement phrases are designed using an interesting and meaningful variety of patterns and directions of travel.

    Phrasing and Form (movement and parts are structured to match the phrasing of the music): A phrase is a unit of movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds to a conclusion, and then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase. Form is the presentation of an idea, the development of the idea, and its conclusion presented in a specific number of parts and a specific order for design.

    Originality of Purpose, Movement, and Design: An individual perspective of movement and design in pursuit of a creative composition as inspired by the music and the underlying vision.

    Utilization of Personal and Public Space: Movement phrases are distributed in such a way they communicate from every angle in a 360 degree skater-viewer relationship.

    "5. Interpretation - The personal and creative translation of the music to movement on ice. To reward the skater who through movement creates a personal and creative translation of the music. As the tempo binds all notes in time, the ability to use the tempos and rhythms of the music in a variety of ways, along with the subtle use of finesse to reflect the nuances of all the fundamentals of music: melody, rhythm, harmony, color, texture, and form creates a mastery of interpretation. Includes:

    Effortless Movements in Time to the Music (Timing): The ability to translate music through sureness of rhythm, tempo, effective movement, and effortless flow over the ice surface by: rhythmic continuity, awareness of all tempo/rhythm changes in a variety of ways.

    Expression of the music's style, character, and rhythm: Maintaining the character and style of the music throughout the entire program by use of body and skating techniques to depict a mood, style, shape, or thematic idea as motivated by the structure of the music: melody, harmony, rhythm, color, texture, and form. The total involvement of the body should express the intent of the music.

    Use of finesse to reflect the nuances of music: The skater's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal, artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo, and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or the musician."

    (Congrats to anyone who waded thru all of that.)

    With these writeups, it shouldn't be surprising that a given program gets a similar same mark each time out, regardless how the jumping goes.

    I think when a program has falls as disruptive as in Chan's latest FS, there should be a hit especially on Interpretation and Performance Execution, but it the rule doesn't necessarily even call for that.

    I think the ISU really needs to go back to the drawing board on how to handle PCS.
    Thank you, Susan, exactly my thoughts not only during this recent debate here, but more or less since CoP was invented.

    Chan, Takahashi and Hanyu have to be the skaters with the highest skating skills no matter how they perform, because they are superior. When a skater earns high scores for interpretation, choreography and transitions, it is only logical that this won`t change much during the season. I can only see the marks for execution change un der PCS, but the rest remains more or less the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    That's what I called "Tenflation" to the ceiling. I actually enjoyed Ten's SP more than his LP. I failed to see a dramatic improvement in his artistry/presentation/skating skills between the two events.
    The converse perspective would be whether or not Denis Ten actually should have scored more in the 8.7 range in PCS in the short program rather than the 8.2 he received (which would have been enough for place 1st overall).

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