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  1. #1
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    Why are the triple toe loop and triple toe walley considered the same jump?

    Just wondering, because they appear to have distinctly different take - offs.

    I seem to recall that Elaine Zayak was proficient at both, and included variations (combined with split jumps, double loops, double flips, double lutzes and double axels in her free skates) prior to the Zayak rule being implemented.

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    I've been skating since I was 12 (in the sixties) and I've never had a coach teach me a toe walley or seen it mentioned in any Learn to Skate Program or on any test (both USFSA and ISI). I don't know why.

    I have tried them on my own based on the description I have read in books. The only difference that I can see is that a toe loop takes off on an outside edge (typically entered from a forward inside 3 turn) and a toe walley takes off from an inside edge (typically done from a forward outside 3 turn). I find toe loops easier than toe walleys, but it is probably only because I have done toe loops far more often.

    Lutzes which take off from an outside edge are considered more difficult than the similar flip jump which takes off from an inside edge. But on the other hand walleys are considered more difficult than loop jumps which is the exact reverse. (Walleys are typically done as accent moves in competition - I don't think anyone has ever done a double or triple).

    I have heard of people doing triple toe walleys in practice, so they may be the easiest triple for some people.

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    In a way this became an extension of the Zayak rule. As essence_of_soy mentions, Elaine was able to do triple toe and triple toe walley from technically correct edges. Hence she was able to skate the following program without technically invoking the Zayak rule:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xrb3...ailpage#t=206s

    What you see is essentially 3 triple toes, but because they were still regarded as different jumps at the time, she was able to find a loophole in the very rule that penalised her.
    It was between 1984 and 1988 - can't remember the exact year - where the ISU declared that triple toe and triple toe walley were the same jump because most skaters were still on an outside edge when using the toe walley take off so essentially they were technically the same.

    However this 3-3 combo by Kwan could be argued to be toe walley/toe loop as she appears to be on an inside edge that skids inwards on the take off on the first jump. The second take off does look very different.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhXa9...ailpage#t=319s

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    Quote Originally Posted by floskate View Post
    In a way this became an extension of the Zayak rule. As essence_of_soy mentions, Elaine was able to do triple toe and triple toe walley from technically correct edges. Hence she was able to skate the following program without technically invoking the Zayak rule:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xrb3...ailpage#t=206s

    What you see is essentially 3 triple toes, but because they were still regarded as different jumps at the time, she was able to find a loophole in the very rule that penalised her.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhXa9...ailpage#t=319s
    Interesting example.

    I always thought Elaine went for the last triple toe because she stepped out of the opening triple toe / double toe, and therefore, wouldn't get any credit for it.

    At the Olympics Elaine nailed that combination (adding a double loop) but doubled the second triple toe walley (after the triple salchow)

    A great CoP friendly program, too.

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    As a former roller competitor, toe walleys were common and highly penalized if we didn't take off from a true back inside edge. (I'm sure that's still the case.)

    A toe loop and a toe walley should be as different as a flip is from a lutz.

    I loved Elaine Zayak, but her "toe walleys" were nothing more than toe loops. She never took off from an inside edge.

    A true toe walley takes off after a long back inside edge (heading into the corner of the rink), much as a lutz takes off after a long outside edge heading into the corner. (I know, the edges can be shorter...)
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

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    I always thought Kwan's solo toe-loops and first part of a combination toe-loops looked like toe walleys - she seemed to stay on the inside edge through the take off.

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    I was taught toe walley by my coach when I was skating (stopped last year). I like that jump.

    IMO it should be considered a different jump because the entrances are different.

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    It's been a long time, but I believe the toe loop-toe walley are treated as the same jump (even though they take off from different edges) because judges at that time felt it was just too difficult to distinguish one from the other in real time half way across a rink. Before they added the rule about repeating jumps, this had not been an issue, but once the Zayak rule came in, it suddenly mattered. I think they thought there would be too many errors in mistakenly crediting a third something or not giving credit because they thought it was a third something when slo-mo replay would later show they were wrong. As we know there is nothing the ISU hates quite so much as when their judges get things wrong.

    Considering how much some skaters lutzes look amazingly the same as their flips, I can see how this was a problem with toe walleys/toe loops. IMO walleys and loops are a lot easier to distinguish, but I have a hunch they got treated the same as the the toe walley/toe loop based on their common nomenclature.

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    I kind of wish that walleys were considered their own jumps (especially since toe loop/walley are as different as lutz/flip) because it'd probably help any skater who could get the true edge on both (in the FS, that is). The Zayak rule has its drawbacks, and since it caps the number of repeated triples, it inadvertently caps the number of triples a skater can do in one program (especially challenging if the skater wants to make the 3T or 3Lo one of the repeated jumps for combo purposes).

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    Is there an example of a toe walley that takes off on a REAL inside edge? Kwans looks outside to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Considering how much some skaters lutzes look amazingly the same as their flips, I can see how this was a problem with toe walleys/toe loops. IMO walleys and loops are a lot easier to distinguish, but I have a hunch they got treated the same as the the toe walley/toe loop based on their common nomenclature.
    Walley and Loop (the edge jumps) are NOT treated the same as toe walley and toe loop.

    Yes, walleys are much easier to distinguish from loops than toe walleys from toe loops. E.g., the walley usually takes off with the free leg behind the skating leg, and the loop with the free leg in front.

    Walleys are never done as triple jumps -- pretty much always singles -- so the Zayak rule does not apply.

    In IJS, a single walley is a nonlisted jump and can now be used anywhere (except short program step sequences) with no penalty and reward as a transition move. It's not going to get called as a single loop.

    A double walley is as common as a unicorn, but I think if it had a point value comparable to a double axel, we might see an occasional attempt.

    If and when that should come to pass, then I'm sure the takeoff edge would have to be scrutinized as much as a lutz. The difference in difficulty between a double walley and a double loop is significant enough that I'm sure they would never get conflated into the same jump.

    Quote Originally Posted by victoriaheidi View Post
    I kind of wish that walleys were considered their own jumps (especially since toe loop/walley are as different as lutz/flip)
    I hope you really mean "I kind of wish that toe walleys were considered their own jumps..." here

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    Walley and Loop (the edge jumps) are NOT treated the same as toe walley and toe loop.
    Sorry my intention wasn't clear. Yes, walley and loop are scored as the same jump while toe walley and toe loop are scored as the same jump. When I said "treated the same" I didn't mean that all 4 were scored as the same jump. I meant the rule/logic treating toe-walley/toe-loop as one jump was also applied to treat walley & loop as one jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I hope you really mean "I kind of wish that toe walleys were considered their own jumps..." here
    Mhmm. Mistake.

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    I love watching walleys. I vote more walleys in skating!!!!
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Sorry my intention wasn't clear. Yes, walley and loop are scored as the same jump while toe walley and toe loop are scored as the same jump. When I said "treated the same" I didn't mean that all 4 were scored as the same jump. I meant the rule/logic treating toe-walley/toe-loop as one jump was also applied to treat walley & loop as one jump.
    But I still don't think that's right, while toe walleys and toe loops became "the same jump" for the purposes of scoring, walleys and loops didn't become the same jump, either back in the day or now under the current scoring system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    Sorry my intention wasn't clear. Yes, walley and loop are scored as the same jump while toe walley and toe loop are scored as the same jump. When I said "treated the same" I didn't mean that all 4 were scored as the same jump. I meant the rule/logic treating toe-walley/toe-loop as one jump was also applied to treat walley & loop as one jump.
    Toe walley/toe loop are scored as the same jump.

    Loops are scored higher than toe loops/toe walleys.

    Walleys are not scored at all -- the are only done as singles and they only count as transitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    I've been skating since I was 12 (in the sixties) and I've never had a coach teach me a toe walley or seen it mentioned in any Learn to Skate Program or on any test (both USFSA and ISI).
    That's not true. The ISI FS2 test requires a half-toe walley, FS3 test has a choice of Toe Loop or Toe Walley, FS7 - choice of Double Toe Loop or Double Toe Walley plus two Walleys in a row.

    My ISI coach had me do both in the ISI test programs. Ditto for Loop and Walley jumps. The USFSA has never really focused on Toe Walleys and Walleys, so they weren't in the Basic Skills curriculum or the standard-track tests. If your instructor only did USFSA, they might not even KNOW what a Mazurka, Walley or Toe Walley looks like, nevertheless how to teach those jumps. (Not criticizing, just pointing out the realities.) For the record, I learned Toe Walley from a BI edge like a Lutz, not from a FO3. I think that would be awkward, because a CCW jumper would have turn CW for FO3, then pick and jump CCW. Walleys were usually done from backward power pulls with the free foot checked behind.

    Group lessons are not always as fastidious as private lessons and testing. Unless the tests were registered with the ISI HQ, they were just evaluations to determine which level to register for next session. The same is true of both USFSA and ISI group lessons at many rinks.

    Because the Toe Walley and Toe Loop use a different entrance edge before toe-in, the Toe Walley was always considered "easier" because the skater doesn't have to do the awkward movement of bringing the free foot across the toeing foot to take off. The inside edge takeoff can provide some extra lift on takeoff if the technique isn't perfect; you can also pick in to the side more easily than you can during a Toe Loop. However, done properly, each are about the same level of difficulty; check the proper edge, pick and takeoff. Once you're in the air, rotation is the same direction, the check is the same backspin-like position and landing is done the same way.
    Last edited by FigureSpins; 11-19-2012 at 04:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FigureSpins View Post
    That's not true. The ISI FS2 test requires a half-toe walley, FS3 test has a choice of Toe Loop or Toe Walley, FS7 - choice of Double Toe Loop or Double Toe Walley plus two Walleys in a row.

    My ISI coach had me do both in the ISI test programs. Ditto for Loop and Walley jumps. The USFSA has never really focused on Toe Walleys and Walleys, so they weren't in the Basic Skills curriculum or the standard-track tests. If your instructor only did USFSA, they might not even KNOW what a Mazurka, Walley or Toe Walley looks like, nevertheless how to teach those jumps. (Not criticizing, just pointing out the realities.) For the record, I learned Toe Walley from a BI edge like a Lutz, not from a FO3. I think that would be awkward, because a CCW jumper would have turn CW for FO3, then pick and jump CCW. Walleys were usually done from backward power pulls with the free foot checked behind.

    Group lessons are not always as fastidious as private lessons and testing. Unless the tests were registered with the ISI HQ, they were just evaluations to determine which level to register for next session. The same is true of both USFSA and ISI group lessons at many rinks.

    Because the Toe Walley and Toe Loop use a different entrance edge before toe-in, the Toe Walley was always considered "easier" because the skater doesn't have to do the awkward movement of bringing the free foot across the toeing foot to take off. The inside edge takeoff can provide some extra lift on takeoff if the technique isn't perfect; you can also pick in to the side more easily than you can during a Toe Loop. However, done properly, each are about the same level of difficulty; check the proper edge, pick and takeoff. Once you're in the air, rotation is the same direction, the check is the same backspin-like position and landing is done the same way.
    My last coach was an ISI gold judge as well as a USFSA coach. I did register tests through FS4 with ISI although it was admittedly many years ago. I remember 1/2 flips and 1/2 lutzes being required on the lower tests, but I've never heard of a 1/2 toe walley.
    Last edited by aliceanne; 11-23-2012 at 07:26 PM.

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    I just checked the ISI rulebook and there is a half toe wallet in FS 2. She is also correct that USFSA coaches disregard half revolution jumps other than waltz jumps preferring to teach full revolution jumps from the start.

    Half jumps are useful as transition moves or in footwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliceanne View Post
    She is also correct that USFSA coaches disregard half revolution jumps other than waltz jumps preferring to teach full revolution jumps from the start.
    I haven't found this to be the case. At 3 different rinks in 3 different states, all the coaches I've worked with have done waltz, half-flip, and half-lutz. We also do half-loop (which is a full rotation jump) and 'half of a loop' (which is a loop landed forward). I've even worked with a coach who encourages skaters to start by landing axels facing forward.

    USFS has waltz, half-flip, and half-lutz in their freeskate learn to skate curriculum: http://www.usfsa.org/Content/FreeSkateCurriculum.pdf


    It would be silly to not teach these jumps, as you said- they are very useful in footwork, and except for the forward landed axel (I disagree with that practice) they are very good building blocks for the jumps.

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